00:00:04:03 - 00:00:30:13
John Sheil
Okay. Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the podcast. This is John Sheil. This is the music business mentorship. And today I have a very special guest. And without further ado, the lovely, the talented violin playing, singing, world renowned movie star Emmaline is on the podcast. That's probably a bit of hype, but you are. So how are you?
00:00:30:13 - 00:00:40:23
Emmaline
Happy to be here! I'm doing great. Excited to just get into some talking about the music business and get on my soapbox a little bit.
00:00:41:00 - 00:00:54:04
John Sheil
Good, good. I want you on your soapbox. I want to hear everything that that you've been going through. Tell me and tell the listeners where we first met and how we met and how long we've been working together.
00:00:54:06 - 00:01:34:13
Emmaline
Yeah. Oh, my God. It's been so long. I almost feel like I've known you my whole life. But we met at the University of Cincinnati. You were doing a master class with the music business class that I was a part of. And you were talking about just the ins and outs of the music business. And at that point I was very new to this side of music because I grew up in the classical world and I had just changed my major at that point to I think I was a jazz studies major at that point.
00:01:34:13 - 00:02:01:11
Emmaline
And so I did not really know anything about the business side of music at all. But as soon as I heard you talking about it, I knew that this was something I needed to learn if I wanted to be successful in music. And I think I came up to you after class because at that time I was also dealing with some person that said they had a record label and wanted to sign me.
00:02:01:13 - 00:02:39:02
Emmaline
And so I came up to you and we started talking and I mentioned this contract and you were like, Hey, yeah, let's sit down and look over this contract because, you know, a lot of those things can be like really sketchy for young artists and I don't want you to sign anything that you shouldn't sign. And so after that initial meeting that we went through that contract and we just discovered so many awful things that were in there, probably if I had signed it, I would still to this day be in that contract and probably be very unhappy with the situation I was in.
00:02:39:04 - 00:02:54:01
Emmaline
And so that's how it all started. And since then, we've done so many different things together. We've looked through contracts, but then you've also run sound for me at my shows, everything. So it's been a journey.
00:02:54:03 - 00:03:02:13
John Sheil
It's been wild. How many do you remember how many Instagram followers you had at that point in your life?
00:03:02:15 - 00:03:40:15
Emmaline
I want to say around that time I probably had maybe around 20,000 followers on my Instagram and a similar number on my Facebook to, like I said, I was kind of new to writing my own songs and kind of doing the songwriter vocalist type of thing. I think maybe I'd only really been doing that for a year, and so I was pretty green, but I had still managed to kind of amass a pretty dedicated following of people that were really interested in what I was doing early on.
00:03:40:20 - 00:03:45:09
Emmaline
So yeah, probably around like 40,000 all around.
00:03:45:11 - 00:04:13:16
John Sheil
I seem to remember those days because I remember some of the horn players that were standing with you in that class. And I remember you were out gigging and there were there were a lot of jazz gigs locally like hearth Lounge and some of the stuff that you were just kind of coming onto the scene and, and I'll never forget you talking about this contract and thinking, that's probably not a good idea.
00:04:13:18 - 00:04:17:14
Emmaline
Yeah, if it wasn't.
00:04:17:16 - 00:04:43:14
John Sheil
Yeah, I'm so glad we didn't have you saying that. That's. Yeah. And I honestly feel like I've known you a long time too, so it's. It's. It's great. I love your family. I love your parents and your siblings. The ones that I've gotten to meet. So tell the audience a little bit about your upbringing. I know you come from a musical family, and how long have you been playing music and singing and participating?
00:04:43:16 - 00:05:21:16
Emmaline
Yeah, yeah. I came from a musical family. My dad is a jazz pianist and an arranger, and so it was kind of with that foundation that all my siblings and I just had a super strong pull towards music from a very young age. And the story goes that when I was on my third birthday, I started asking for a violin and my parents were like, she might be a little young to start.
00:05:21:16 - 00:05:44:14
Emmaline
Like maybe we're not really sure if she really wants to play the violin or if this is just kind of a fad. So we'll like, we'll give it a year. And if she's still asking for a violin, we'll get her one. And so in that time, I think my dad started teaching me piano lessons just to kind of get, you know, get some of the musical itch going.
00:05:44:16 - 00:06:26:10
Emmaline
And then by the time my fourth birthday rolled around, I got my first violin for my fourth birthday, and I started taking lessons immediately. And I existed in the classical world of music for really my whole upbringing until I was 18. And I went to Cincinnati Conservatory of Music on a Fulbright scholarship for violin performance. And I got there and I think it's no surprise to me that when I got there, I hated it because I always had this very strong pull towards wanting to write my own songs but never really knowing how.
00:06:26:14 - 00:07:02:01
Emmaline
And I had bands in high school with my sister, who is a pianist and a songwriter, and she went to school for music business and arranging. And so my sister and I had bands together and I always sang and the bands and stuff like that. But I think because I was very successful from a very young age in the classical world, I kind of always felt deterred from really diving in to possibly, you know, switching gears and doing the songwriting thing and doing the artists thing.
00:07:02:03 - 00:07:27:22
Emmaline
And when I got to school, it was just very apparent almost immediately that I was like, Man, this is not for me. Like the classical performance world, the concert music world. I have a lot of respect for people. They exist in those worlds, but it was never met for me. I think it was a path that I kind of continued on because I felt obligated to at some point because I was like, Well, this is what I've always done.
00:07:27:24 - 00:08:03:23
Emmaline
This is what I'm supposed to do. I'm really good at it. And like by the time I was a sophomore in high school, people were saying that I was like a prodigy. And it was very it felt very like, Oh, I need to be doing this because this is what my future is meant to be. But then when I got to college and I realized I'm so unhappy, I can't do this, I changed my major to jazz studies because that was kind of another part of my musical upbringing that I thought, well, maybe this would be a good kind of segue way for me to go from like classical to jazz to like songwriter performer.
00:08:04:04 - 00:08:29:23
Emmaline
And that is kind of how that ended up taking place. So I changed my major to jazz. I started like gigging locally and playing these like four and five hour long gigs at restaurants and bars in Cincinnati and making no money. I think my first gig, it was a four hour gig and it was every Tuesday night and I made it was me and Ryan, my guitarist, and I think we both left with $80 every Tuesday night.
00:08:30:03 - 00:08:55:18
Emmaline
And we did that religiously for, I think, two years. And that is kind of what started everything we like started gaining a following and people really liked it and would come to this restaurant just to hear us play. And then that grew to us kind of playing more listening room types of places. Like I basically created my own concert series at Hearth Lounge because at that point they weren't really doing concerts and they weren't open on Sundays.
00:08:55:18 - 00:09:15:06
Emmaline
And I asked the owner because I had developed a relationship with him at that point I was like, Hey, what if you opened on Sunday afternoons and I played these themed concerts and we'd sell tickets and we'll I'll give you a percentage of the ticket sales and we'll just do that as long as we can. It was a massive success.
00:09:15:06 - 00:09:39:18
Emmaline
I think we did that for a year and it all kind of just added onto itself to where now I'm in Nashville. I've been a full time touring and recording artist for, I want to say at least four years. And yeah, just like seriously doing what I love, which is all I can ask for.
00:09:39:20 - 00:10:09:19
John Sheil
That's amazing. I love the entrepreneurial spirit. I love the fact that you created that concert series. I think that it's readily apparent throughout my time of knowing you that you have had that streak in you, and I want to know how that plays into your business now, because I as I talked to artists and musicians, there are a few of them that really understand that the daily sales, like making a daily sale, is so important.
00:10:09:21 - 00:10:29:22
John Sheil
And you and I were having a conversation recently about you and your daily sales and you were hitting numbers and you were looking for benchmarks and you were looking to see how you could increase your sales. And tell me about how you transitioned into that, because that must have been quite a leap for someone who you're in school.
00:10:29:22 - 00:10:49:00
John Sheil
Then you're going to leave school and you're going to do this full time. And that transition is really what this music business mentorship is all about. How do you get from, I want to be a full time musician to being a full time musician and making a living at it. And you have just you've got it. You're doing it.
00:10:49:02 - 00:10:50:06
John Sheil
You're doing such a great job.
00:10:50:10 - 00:11:24:13
Emmaline
So thank you. Yeah. I mean, being a full time musician for me has taken different shapes over the course of the past couple of years. I would say initially being a full time musician, for me, my main source of income was coming from gigging and I was gigging and I was playing locally. That was like back when I was living in Cincinnati, I was probably playing anywhere from like 4 to 5 shows a week, and that was like either like bars or restaurants or some private events, combination of both.
00:11:24:15 - 00:11:49:08
Emmaline
And that's what the bulk of my income was. And then in 2019, I started touring and I kind of switched over from gigging full time in a local scene to having pockets of time where I was on the road touring or performing in different markets throughout the United States. And that's where the bulk of my income was coming from.
00:11:49:08 - 00:12:14:05
Emmaline
So it's like I would do a two week run in January, rack up as much cash as I could have a couple of months off, go back out in April, rack up as much cash as I could, etc., etc.. But then when COVID hit, everything really took a massive spin for me because I was making all of my money by performing.
00:12:14:05 - 00:12:49:03
Emmaline
Really, I had absolutely no alternate or additional forms of income, passive or other. And I realized, Wow, okay, performing is great. And it is. It can be a great chunk of my revenue. But I think for it to be my only source of revenue is not smart because as we realized at any time, it could be taken away and then all of a sudden you're left without any way of making money for yourself.
00:12:49:05 - 00:13:31:11
Emmaline
So when things kind of started going back to normal, like circa 2021 or so, I immediately went back out on the road as soon as I could, was like trying to get my finances back in order. And then around 2022, I really started realizing that I wanted to grow my ways of making money outside of just touring. I had I, I can't even count how many times I had said, Man, I really wish there was a way for me to make money without having to go on the road, because kind of around that time too, I was dealing with a bunch of misery as health problems.
00:13:31:11 - 00:14:17:03
Emmaline
I really wasn't doing well. I was going out on tours probably when I shouldn't have, and I was feeling terrible and it felt like I just kept feeling sicker and sicker. And so I realized like, no, I really need to figure out other ways for me to make money. So in March of 2023, I was planning to release my third EP, Retro Kind of Love and I had heard of this company called Into Producer, and they basically their whole business model is helping independent artists maximize the ways in which, in which they're making money so that they can have a more sustainable life.
00:14:17:05 - 00:14:44:07
Emmaline
And not just to leave a whole bunch of possibility to make money on the table while they're seeking vanity metrics like streaming numbers that don't actually put money in their pockets. And Ryan had done a lot of research on this company and I think we even had signed up for they have like a subscription model plan where like they have a bunch of like this backlog of tutorial videos.
00:14:44:09 - 00:15:10:06
Emmaline
And we had signed up for that and done a bunch of work on like watching their videos and learning how to set up ad campaigns for tours and how to set up ad campaigns for album sales and stuff like that. And Ryan was like, they have a basically kind of like a agency where they can work directly with independent artists and help you figure out a plan to maximize your revenue.
00:15:10:08 - 00:15:50:19
Emmaline
So I started working with this company for my album release, and at the time I think I signed up with the intentions of like, Oh, I want them to help me like maximize my sales and maximize the amount of years listening to the album. And I didn't really realize that when I started working with them that it was going to completely open my eyes and kind of change my view on what being an independent artist means and also open my eyes to a lot of smoke and mirrors that just goes on in the industry that lots of people don't think about.
00:15:50:21 - 00:16:17:24
Emmaline
And so working with them was fabulous. Like could not recommend it enough and it indiepreneur are great people super helpful. Absolutely changed my view on just how to make it happen and how to actually make money outside of just touring. And so when I was working with them, I started doing this campaign called Free with shipping and Handling and basically you set up this offer.
00:16:17:24 - 00:16:54:00
Emmaline
It's all like based through media ads and it is basically where you give away a CD for free. Your offer is, Hey, I am, you know, wanting to get my music out to more people and I'm giving away free CDs to everybody who will just pay me $5 for shipping and I'll send me a receipt. And as they go through this checkout funnel, they're offered these upsells of like, Hey, do you want to add my second C.D. on for, you know, 50% off?
00:16:54:02 - 00:17:31:06
Emmaline
And then by the end of it, they have the opportunity to add vinyl, CDs that they're actually paying for onto their order. But they're kind of becoming familiar with you because you're offering them something for free upfront. And this whole campaign was really eye opening to me because you're basically getting paid to reach new fans. And immediately these people are all entered onto your email list and they're getting merch and they're following your socials and all of a sudden your gross your fan base while making money and running this campaign, which I still have it running for now.
00:17:31:06 - 00:18:01:08
Emmaline
And it's been going incredibly well. I think I've sold over a over and or around like 2100 copies of my first EP and that I think I've only had the campaign running since August. So, you know, those are numbers. Those are real numbers and that all of those people are on my email list. Now, some of them have even purchased other merch that I've dropped since then.
00:18:01:10 - 00:18:49:24
Emmaline
And so doing that campaign really opened my eyes to how being an independent musician requires you to kind of think of your business as less of, you know, streaming and, you know, views and followers and stuff like that and function more like a regular normal business world where you're selling direct to the customer and actually making sales. So kind of taking a more sales as sales centric approach to the music business rather than vanity metrics and smoke and mirrors approach where you're not making any money, but perhaps, you know, you look more famous or whatever.
00:18:50:01 - 00:19:13:06
Emmaline
So it's really opened my eyes and I'm, you know, I'm not anywhere where I, I can't say that I've reached my end goal of like, you know, where I want to be in my career. But I can say that I am really taking steps towards having the career that I want to have and no labels are involved. So that's pretty cool.
00:19:13:08 - 00:19:45:13
John Sheil
It's amazing. It really is. It's super impressive. I'm so glad you brought them up. I'm glad you joined that program and I'm glad you're talking about it from a daily sales perspective, because I think that and this is something I've discussed with other podcast guests and other musicians, when you're in the mindset, your whole life of training to be a talented musician, to put in the time behind the fretboard or behind the keyboard or behind the violin, you're used to putting in long hours and doing gigs for not very much money.
00:19:45:19 - 00:20:20:05
John Sheil
And so the shift mentally between I have to do this just to get better and then now I have to do this because I have to earn a living. It's just a mental shift that it's very hard for some artists. And there's the this idea that that somehow the commerce side is selling out. But if there's plenty of people out there and you're living proof, real artists don't starve, you're creating a way for your fans to love you and give you positive energy by paying your bills, right?
00:20:20:07 - 00:20:46:16
John Sheil
And you're giving them things that they really value. And it's a connection to you. Tell me about that connection. You have a thriving follower. We talked about where you started, but right now you're somewhere around to 200 or to ten, 200,000 followers on Instagram alone and maybe 200,000 followers or thereabouts on Facebook. Yeah. How engaged do you feel with your community?
00:20:46:16 - 00:20:53:19
John Sheil
I know you're great at the merch table, but how do you feel about it as an artist?
00:20:53:21 - 00:21:49:18
Emmaline
Yeah, yeah. I would say at this point my following is probably grown to across all platforms, nearly like a half a million, I would say. And I would say my use of social media and my relationship to social media has kind of changed and evolved over the years. And I think anybody who's I mean, obviously, let's face it, I truly believe that the reality, if you want to be a full time musician, that a great amount of your career comes from social, you know, working on socials and content creation, as much as I know so many people want to roll their eyes at that or I mean, even for me, like sometimes I'm like,
00:21:49:18 - 00:22:12:09
Emmaline
Oh, I don't want to make more videos, like I'm really burnt out or whatever. But I mean, it is just such a big part of what we do. Like when you don't have big record label funding, that's, you know, pushing a bunch of things behind the scenes. It's your job to get your music out there, and the best way that we can do that is by using socials.
00:22:12:09 - 00:22:44:16
Emmaline
And so when I first came in to, you know, this artist, independent artist type of world, that was my whole my whole statement was I was like, you know what? I'm going to really use this tool of social media to my advantage. And I started just making a bunch of videos. I think when I first when I first started this journey, I was probably posting like 4 to 5 videos a week, 3 to 5 videos a week.
00:22:44:16 - 00:23:00:18
Emmaline
And at that point, it didn't really feel like work because I didn't have any expectations. I was really doing it just for fun. And then the fact that people really caught on and really enjoyed the music that I was making was kind of just the icing on the cake. But at that time I was really just doing it for fun.
00:23:00:18 - 00:23:20:24
Emmaline
I had no real intentions of like going viral or blowing up. I didn't really know that was in the cards for me. So it just kind of happened organically. And then as time has gone on, my use of socials and the way to use it as a tool and how to connect directly with your fans has kind of shaped and grown into new ways.
00:23:20:24 - 00:23:48:15
Emmaline
And now, you know, I feel that it is my duty as an artist to try my best to be as authentic as I can with my following and to kind of treat them like family because let's be honest, like the listeners are the reason why this is possible. People listening and supporting your music are why you're able to make a living doing this.
00:23:48:15 - 00:24:13:17
Emmaline
And to me that is not lost on me. And so I really try to make sure the people that are really supporting you feel seen and to the best I can, you know, because sometimes you could be on your phone for hours and still not respond to every single comment. But I think it's just all about being as authentic as you can be and taking breaks when you feel burn out.
00:24:13:17 - 00:24:38:22
Emmaline
Because that's another really big thing is like when you're constantly on your phone and you have access to everybody's opinion of you or you know, it can sometimes get a little bit exhausting. But to just take any negativity with a grain of salt and just move on and let it just kind of roll off is something I've had to learn to do over the years.
00:24:38:22 - 00:24:53:23
Emmaline
But also just all of the support makes it all worth it too. Because for every one person saying something negative, there's ten people that are there to support you. So it makes it worth it. You know.
00:24:54:00 - 00:25:14:04
John Sheil
You bring up a really great point and just from my perspective, having watched you grow from, you know, I seem to recall a lower number at your start, but it just feels like over the years it's just incrementally and exponentially grown, which is which is amazing. I think that you make people feel seen. I think you do a really good job of that.
00:25:14:04 - 00:25:40:11
John Sheil
I think you make people feel loved and like you care that they are coming to your shows and that you care that they're participating in your merch sales and they are invested in your career, which is a really good feeling. As a, as an observer. I will say, though, that you led into my next question, which is self-care, because it is hard.
00:25:40:11 - 00:26:00:23
John Sheil
There are there are a tribe of haters out there too. And for every artist, I'm sure there's this group that just jealousy or whatever, you know, how do you take a step back and take a deep breath? And how do you take care of yourself on the road and then personally through this journey? Because it's not easy.
00:26:01:00 - 00:26:27:04
Emmaline
Yeah, I think when I first got into kind of the social media world and I was really doing a lot of posting and really trying to get my name out there, I did not have the tools to deal with negative feedback, you know, because when you're I had some videos very early on that went very viral, like 40 plus million views.
00:26:27:06 - 00:26:54:22
Emmaline
And I think at that point I wasn't super equipped to deal with just how people can be on the Internet, which is very lost on me, because never once have I seen something that I didn't care for on the Internet and then felt like obligated to like post something hateful or nasty. Like don't normal people just see something that they don't like and they just scroll on by, you know?
00:26:54:24 - 00:27:18:09
Emmaline
And I was listening to what I was listening to. And you know what? I think you were the person that recommended this podcast to me. Now, I can't remember what it's called. Let me see. Cathy Heller Yes, I was listening to Cathy's podcast this morning, and because I am such a podcast, like, here's the thing about me, I am just a podcast junkie.
00:27:18:09 - 00:27:40:07
Emmaline
Like, I love just having podcasts going. I love to learn things. So I love like I love Cathy's podcast. I love this podcast actually buy indiepreneur called Creative Juice. There's this other podcast I do all the time called The New Music. This that's like, I just love hearing people's opinions on business and the music business and life.
00:27:40:09 - 00:28:07:10
Emmaline
So this is very full circle for us to be talking about this in the podcast environment because that is like probably the number one type of media that I consume. But anyway, I digress. I was listening to Cathy's podcast this morning and she was saying how because somebody asked her a question, she was answering questions from her fans and somebody had asked the question of how does she deal with negative feedback?
00:28:07:15 - 00:28:30:11
Emmaline
And she said something that I was like, Wow, that's so poignant and it's so true. She was like, Basically what I just said is not often do I go on social media. Actually, never have I gone on social media and seen something I didn't like and then felt obligated, felt so negatively towards what I'd seen. Like somebody sings a song and I think it's terrible.
00:28:30:14 - 00:29:06:03
Emmaline
I never once have been like, This is absolute trash. You know, I've never once said that in the comments. And she's like it. People leaving nasty comments or any sort of negativity is so much more a reflection on them than it is on you that it's like you can't even let it penetrate into you deep enough to hurt your feelings because it's like if you view every negative comment with like the lens of like, Wow, I feel so bad for you.
00:29:06:03 - 00:29:38:19
Emmaline
Like, never. I, I have had very low times in my life, but never have I felt so terrible about myself that I have felt obligated to say something nasty to somebody online that I don't even know. So imagine how terrible that person must feel about themselves. Imagine what must be going very wrong in their life or how something must be going wrong because somebody who is, you know, healthy in spirit is not doing that.
00:29:38:19 - 00:30:17:22
Emmaline
And so I think that lens and having that outlook, which is not always easy to have, sometimes you see something and you're like, wow, like that actually kind of hurts my feelings a little bit, you know, But trying to keep that lens of like, I feel so bad for you, like if you feel so inclined to say something nasty to a stranger online just because you didn't like what I was wearing or you don't like my song choice or you don't like the drama or this or that, like you must have something really negative going on in your personal life and I'm sorry for you.
00:30:18:03 - 00:30:50:08
Emmaline
And also just the block button. You know, I use that constantly. Like I've gotten to the point where I don't even sometimes it's not even worth it to engage with people that are just spewing negativity. If somebody says something negative, I don't ever. More recently, this has been in more recent days. I just don't even engage because it's like not worth my time to engage in something negative or some kind of I don't need to convince you.
00:30:50:09 - 00:31:05:13
Emmaline
Like if you don't like me and you have something bad to say, I don't need to convince you any different. If you want to think that you don't have to like me, that's cool. We don't like. I know there's lots of people that don't like me. I'm sure there's people out there that don't like you, and that's cool.
00:31:05:13 - 00:31:31:10
Emmaline
We're not meant. Not everybody needs to just love everybody. Sometimes there's, you know, personalities just don't match or tastes don't align. Cool. You don't like me, move on. That's it. You know, it doesn't have to be personal. And I think that's something that I've really been trying to work on over the past couple of years. And something that has helped a lot is just limiting social media consumption in general.
00:31:31:12 - 00:32:00:00
Emmaline
When I tell you I don't even have I have two phones, I have my personal phone, and then I have like my business phone, which I do all my work on. I don't even have socials on my personal phone anymore. I haven't had them on my personal phone for probably around a year now. And that has absolutely changed my life because sometimes I think this is more than just, you know, a negative comment or whatever.
00:32:00:00 - 00:32:28:05
Emmaline
This is just for all of our own well-being. I think we can all agree that sometimes just overconsumption can feel very overstimulating. And we get in this habit because I really like LED needs to get to the point where I was like, I can't even have access to this all the time. Was I notice, like at any given moment, if I wasn't doing something immediately, I was on my phone scrolling immediately.
00:32:28:09 - 00:33:05:24
Emmaline
It didn't matter if I was like sitting at a stoplight or if I was in line at the grocery store, or if I am taking a break from folding laundry immediately. I was picking up my phone and as a creative and as a writer, specifically as a songwriter, I was reading something somewhere that said a lot of creativity and new ideas are born out of boredom because your brain has to be idle enough to come up with something to keep itself occupied.
00:33:06:03 - 00:33:24:21
Emmaline
And that's where a lot of creative ideas come from. That's why so many good ideas come to you when you're in the shower or when you're driving, because you don't. There's really nothing you can do to distract yourself, so you just kind of have to sit there and your brain will be like, Oh, what if you wrote a melody that went like this?
00:33:24:21 - 00:34:08:10
Emmaline
Or like, what if you wrote a song that was about this? And that's how these creative ideas even get birthed from the start. And I think taking a step back and kind of allowing our brains to be bored can help us be so much more present and creative. I noticed immediately when I got socials completely off of my everyday phone that immediately I was writing more and writer's block didn't seem like something that was so constant because I was very.
00:34:08:10 - 00:34:19:03
Emmaline
I go through phases of being very blocked creatively, and I think I was blocking myself because I was never allowing myself to slow down. So food for thought.
00:34:19:05 - 00:34:42:08
John Sheil
That's really and that really is brilliant. I, I love that. I mean, you've hit on so many things, but I love that you've taken time for yourself, both mentally and physically, to away from the barrage of social media. And I think you're completely right that it does take that stillness in order to reach a new creative height.
00:34:42:10 - 00:35:04:24
John Sheil
I as I'm just absorbing everything of your journey here, I'm wondering, do you have other practices like meditation or working out that are part of your daily routine that help you stay, stay engaged with your business? I mean, do you do you feel a connection to your physical health and your mental health and your creative output?
00:35:05:01 - 00:35:39:10
Emmaline
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I think over the past maybe three years, I have really, really been very intentional about daily yoga practice. And I got into that. I really had been wanting to start a yoga practice for some time. I think even the first time I ever explored yoga was my sophomore year at University of Cincinnati, and I took a yoga class to try to force myself to like really digest it.
00:35:39:12 - 00:36:04:20
Emmaline
And it's so funny how if you try to dive into something before you're really ready, like mentally, physically, spiritually, whatever, sometimes it just doesn't click immediately. And I know at that time I really wanted yoga to like mean something to me and I wanted it to fix all my problems. I was like really trying to muscle through it and like, go to yoga class and like, force myself to practice every day or whatever.
00:36:04:22 - 00:36:29:09
Emmaline
And it never clicked that that whole year I took that class and never clicked. It always felt very forced. And then it wasn't until 2020 that, you know, I was stuck at home and kind of during all of that, kind of aside from COVID, I was dealing myself with lots of really crazy like mental health problems that kind of came up out of nowhere.
00:36:29:09 - 00:37:01:02
Emmaline
And I was like feeling that I had to dive and work through a lot of trauma that I had just basically shelved. And I had been staying busy, busy, busy. And then when I wasn't busy, I was like, Oh no, I have to like, actually deal with all this crap that I just left on the shelves. And so all of a sudden yoga clicked once I needed it, like when I needed it to stay sane, all of a sudden it absolutely clicked.
00:37:01:02 - 00:37:30:09
Emmaline
Everything clicked. And since then I've been pretty consistent, I would say with yoga, and I'll like bring my yoga mat with me on the road and try my best to like, stay on top of it, even though it's so hard, like especially as an independent, like I'm my own tour manager, like I even take driving shifts, like I'm literally even like driving the van with the band and we're all, you know, working together to make like my tour as possible.
00:37:30:09 - 00:37:53:01
Emmaline
But I really try to stay on top of yoga and if not yoga, something that I've found that works very well for me is like guided meditation and guided affirmation practices. And when I'm in the car on the road, I'll just like pop in my headphones and like, listen to like a 20 minute, like guided visualization or something.
00:37:53:03 - 00:38:17:10
Emmaline
And immediately I feel more centered because especially on the road, I find it so hard to stay like balance because there's like so many ups and downs you like go from like a high of like being on stage and meeting everybody after the show and it's like energy, energy, energy. And then you go to the Airbnb and you have to pack up all the gear and you have to bring it.
00:38:17:11 - 00:38:49:08
Emmaline
And it's like it can get very taxing if you let it. And I absolutely have noticed it feels so much better if I stay really intentional about like when I have a moment of free time, which is usually when I'm in the band, I'm either listening to some kind of guided meditation or, you know, doing like breathing exercises or like crocheting or doing something creative writing in a journal rather than just like doomscrolling on my phone or watching Netflix.
00:38:49:12 - 00:39:14:03
Emmaline
I feel so much better if I'm trying to be more intentional about my free time on the road. And I'm kind of like nervous, excited because I'm going on my last tour of this year in a week and we're going to be on the East Coast, kind of like Mid Atlantic region. And I haven't been touring all summer because I've really been working on like my e-commerce and my sales and stuff like that.
00:39:14:05 - 00:39:41:04
Emmaline
So I'm like, you know, it's one of those things like it's like a muscle if you're not like actively exercising, like being on the road, sometimes you can get out of the habit and it's not so much the performing that's taxing, but it's like everything else. So I'm excited, but I'm also like every time when I haven't toured in a while before I go back on the road, I'm always like, And I do it like, am I going to be good?
00:39:41:10 - 00:40:01:11
Emmaline
And then as soon as I play the first show and set up all the merch and tear everything down and load the van up and go to the Airbnb, you get one night under your belt and you're like, Oh yeah, I got this. We're good, we're fine, everything's good. So I'm ready to just like get going though, because like we're a week away and I'm like, okay, let's just get this on the road.
00:40:01:11 - 00:40:06:20
Emmaline
Let's like, let's get it going because this is the waiting. That's the hardest part for me.
00:40:06:22 - 00:40:10:18
John Sheil
Nice, nice. Tom Petty quote there.
00:40:10:20 - 00:40:13:06
Emmaline
Unintentional, but yeah, yeah.
00:40:13:08 - 00:40:35:16
John Sheil
I love that. You mentioned the radical empathy for that that Kathy talks about for the fans that don't vibe or maybe they're not even fans. They're haters. They're really just social media trolls. And I'm glad you've learned a block. That's amazing. What I wonder is how you engage with fans face to face. Because I worked with you at the Ludlow Garage.
00:40:35:18 - 00:41:01:19
John Sheil
I saw how you were engaged with folks, but it was also a bit of a homecoming of sorts because you lived in Cincinnati for a while and that's a historic venue. And there is a great little spot for merch. How do you how do you approach the merch sales on the road? Like what is your goal after the show or before the show to make sure you can kind of maximize merch sales and fan engagement?
00:41:01:19 - 00:41:05:08
John Sheil
Like what is your what? How do you go through that process?
00:41:05:10 - 00:41:28:14
Emmaline
Yes, I think I have found that it is especially in the early stages of your career, because I still very much consider myself in the early stages of my career. I think it is so valuable to be present at the merch table. I think so many artists like hire merch sellers too soon and they're not present at the merch table.
00:41:28:14 - 00:41:56:14
Emmaline
They're fans, can't engage with them face to face. And I think it does create a little bit of a disconnect where even if, like fans aren't thinking it, you know, in the moment, I think it feels a little disconnected when an artist isn't actively doing their best to interact with the people that came to their show. So I always try my very best unless I'm not feeling well.
00:41:56:14 - 00:42:31:02
Emmaline
Like I said, last year, really like 2022 was like a really rough year for me physically. And I had like a bunch of, like stomach infections that I didn't know I had for like years and I was touring and it was very taxing on me. So there were some shows where I was like, I literally can I physically cannot go out there, but I always try my best to be at the merch table, the sign, because first of all, just from a sales perspective, you're adding free value to your product.
00:42:31:05 - 00:42:54:05
Emmaline
By putting your signature on it, it costs you nothing but adding that little added value is invaluable to the fans. And some people will go to the merch table and buy something just because you're there and they might have never come up otherwise because you know you aren't going to be there. And they really wanted to meet you and to make that connection.
00:42:54:05 - 00:43:15:21
Emmaline
So I always sign at the merch tables. I also like to try to give away something for free. This is something recent that I notice actually makes a really big difference. So recently I've been giving away like free signed mini prints to anybody who buys anything, and so they're just like these little mini wallet sized prints. You get them.
00:43:15:23 - 00:43:39:18
Emmaline
I literally get them printed like hundreds at a time from Walgreens, and it's $0.99 for a sheet of four wallet prints. So it's really not that big of an expense to you. But just offering people something for free makes them feel special and makes them want to support you more because you're giving them a good buyer experience, you know?
00:43:39:20 - 00:44:01:13
Emmaline
So what? I'm on the road. I always love to be like, Hey, I'm giving away free sign. Many prints to anybody who comes to the merch table. I'll be finding the thing that you buy. Come by and see me. It makes a huge difference. It really does. I've noticed a massive difference in merch sales when I'm a there at the merch table and be giving away something for free because everybody loves free stuff.
00:44:01:15 - 00:44:02:20
Emmaline
So yeah.
00:44:02:22 - 00:44:25:06
John Sheil
That's incredible. I really love that. I want to ask you probably a difficult question and that is how do you deal with the folks on the road who are who are unpleasant when, for example, you might be at the merch table and there's someone hanging around that just seems a little sketchy, little creepy, and you know, how do you how do you approach that?
00:44:25:06 - 00:44:41:07
John Sheil
How do you approach safety and security? Because I know there are a lot of listeners who are women, young women, and you're a pioneering young woman in this industry, and how do you keep yourself safe and protected in those kinds of situations and on the road and in general?
00:44:41:09 - 00:45:18:24
Emmaline
Yeah. Oh, my God, That is such a loaded question for me, because if I'm being honest, I'm still trying to figure that out myself as an independent when you don't have you don't have security. And like I said, I'm very often trying to make myself present at the merch table. So I'm out there selling my merch to my fans and I, I cannot I mean, of course the mass majority of the people I'm meeting are very and very nice and they have no ill intent whatsoever.
00:45:19:01 - 00:45:50:07
Emmaline
But like you said, there are people out there, especially as a young woman, that just are super sketchy. And something that I have learned over time is keeping your team close. The people that are there with you and letting them know ahead of time like, hey, if this happens, would you mind stepping in and doing this? A great example would be, and you know what?
00:45:50:07 - 00:46:10:18
Emmaline
This was so actually very sweet because I had not had a conversation with this bass player prior to him stepping in and saving me from a really awkward situation. But earlier this year I was on my retro kind of Love EP release tour and we were at the merch table Ryan and I were signing. We were dealing with everything.
00:46:10:18 - 00:46:31:13
Emmaline
Ryan always deals with all the money and then I like sign and do a lot of like the fan engagement type of stuff. And the guys from my band were kind of just hanging out by the merch table and usually my brother plays bass for me, but he was in his senior year of college and he wasn't able to be on this tour because he had finals.
00:46:31:15 - 00:46:59:19
Emmaline
So I had hired this sub bass player who is now a great friend. His name's Alex College. He's so great. And there was a individual who was at the show and he seemed very drunk and he was probably holding up the merch line for like at least 8 to 10 minutes. And there was a line of like 20 people behind him.
00:46:59:24 - 00:47:28:24
Emmaline
And it's really as the artist because you want to show your support to people and you want to show that you're grateful for them coming to the show and buying your merch. But at the same time, sometimes, you know, people need to have common sense and realize like, you can't take up all the time. But like I said, he was drunk, saying some very questionable things to me and his bass player, Alex, he was just kind of standing by next to me having a conversation with my drummer Isaiah.
00:47:29:01 - 00:47:50:02
Emmaline
He like, kind of overheard it and I think became aware of the situation and he stepped in and was like, Hey, man, Yeah, I don't know. The guy was talking about something and Alex just stepped in and was, Hey, I was hearing you talk about your photography. I'd love to know more. Do you want to go to the bar with me and, like, get a drink and, like, tell me all about it?
00:47:50:04 - 00:48:15:11
Emmaline
And completely saved me from, like, a super awkward situation of having to be like, Hey, I'm not comfortable with this conversation. I'm sorry. You're going to have to leave because it's just so hard to say, you know? And I'm still trying to navigate that myself. But that situation showed me that I can use my resources. I don't need to have security in order to feel safe.
00:48:15:11 - 00:48:52:21
Emmaline
And I can use my resources of my band or my friends or family or whoever's around and kind of have an escape route of like, Hey, if you notice somebody is acting kind of questionable or taking up a lot of time, would you mind stepping in and assisting in like kind of bringing them away from my space so that I'm not obligated as the artist to make an enemy with somebody who did come out to my show and did support doesn't necessarily mean that they have the right to not treat me with respect, you know?
00:48:52:22 - 00:49:15:20
Emmaline
So that situation really opened my eyes to be able to utilize the people around me. And since then, I've had lots of help from my band, just whether it's just helping move people along in the merch line or actually like save Me from, you know, kind of awkward encounters like that. So yeah, just like utilizing the team that you have is super helpful.
00:49:15:22 - 00:49:39:22
John Sheil
That really is brilliant. I do think that when your progress in your career grows, there will be more people on the road, more, you know, a tour manager, those types of folks who who can of step into that role. But it's amazing that Alex did that. I like Alex Hodge, too. I met him. We got to eat dinner after one of the shows together and yeah, such a nice guy.
00:49:39:23 - 00:49:41:20
Emmaline
Yes, I know.
00:49:42:01 - 00:50:10:00
John Sheil
Yeah, that's really excellent. I think that's really smart on his part, but, but I think it's also a good strategy for folks listening to the podcast who might think, okay, you know, I have to go out and I have to drive in the van and I'm the artist and but having the team and having everyone be aware of that, the role is not just standing on stage and playing bass, but it's also participating in the project, you know, throughout the night.
00:50:10:06 - 00:50:34:06
John Sheil
Because really, as you walk into the venue and as you walk out of the venue, if their eyes on you, then it's part of the experience and sometimes people show up really early. I've noticed that, particularly at shows where I'm the sound guy and I'm there hours early, people will come and they will hang around and they will just try to get some of your attention, or if they happen to meet a band member or happen to get to talk to someone.
00:50:34:08 - 00:51:01:09
John Sheil
But I think you hit on some really great points, particularly the signing and the being at the merch table. I know as a fan of artists that if I can go and I can buy a vinyl, if I can get it autographed, it's like another one for my collection, you know, it's great. And, and I there have been times where if I don't see a particular style of merch and the artist isn't there, then I won't go to the merch table.
00:51:01:09 - 00:51:06:12
John Sheil
So. So I know that just as a fan, but as an artist, I'm sure you see that.
00:51:06:12 - 00:51:16:04
Emmaline
So yes, there is a huge difference. Be at your merch table. It's absolutely invaluable to your sales. I have noticed that.
00:51:16:06 - 00:51:43:14
John Sheil
So one thing I want to ask and this is sort of the question I've been asking everyone, I posted a social media post that kind of phrased it like if you had a magic wand, what would you fix about the music business and why? And just imagine you have the power to fix something. What would you what would you change.
00:51:43:16 - 00:52:39:06
Emmaline
That's so hard? Okay, let me think. I think, okay, here is something that I feel. I guess this is kind of like a different take to your question, but I think if I could give anybody advice, I think this is what I'm thinking. If I could give anybody advice on the ways in which we could change how we view the music industry, especially as independents, because sometimes I feel like we can get stuck on like, oh, like streaming like that just ruin the industry and, you know, like labels and buy and all this stuff.
00:52:39:06 - 00:53:17:22
Emmaline
Like we can get really tied up in like what is not our reality. And I feel like perhaps if I could give anybody advice on how we can change the way we view the industry is realizing that these macro numbers of like, you know, and like I keep coming back to like sort of these vanity metrics of like how many streams you have, how many playlists are you on, how many write-ups have you gotten, how many like how many times have you been featured in Rolling Stone?
00:53:17:22 - 00:54:05:23
Emmaline
Are you charting on the Billboard Top 100? All of these things, I think people can get really tied up. And that being the measure of success and thinking, Oh, well, I haven't made it yet unless I have reached these benchmarks and have these metrics. And I think as independent of specifically something that would be so helpful if we could just rewire our brains to think more on creating this super fan and creating fans that want to support your music forever, that rather than, you know, trying to gather and failing to gather millions of streams and views and all of this stuff, they actually don't.
00:54:06:00 - 00:54:44:22
Emmaline
Those really don't add anything to your career because how many of them are going to actually buy a tour ticket? How many of those monthly listeners are actually going to buy your album when it comes out on vinyl? And so I think not to get discouraged and bogged down by these, not seeing these big numbers and massive blow up virality, not to get discouraged and deterred by that and to instead focus on developing and growing your intimate relationship, your 1 to 1 connection with the people that do care and the people that do want to support you.
00:54:44:24 - 00:55:10:08
Emmaline
You'll have so much of a better career if we would all have so much of a better time, if we could let go of trying to appear as if we're famous or appear as if we're doing very well and focus on just harnessing true connections with people that care and making a living off of what we love to do, which is create music.
00:55:10:10 - 00:55:17:05
Emmaline
That is absolutely what I wish we could all embrace more. You know.
00:55:17:07 - 00:55:42:06
John Sheil
I think that's fantastic. I think that's a wonderful twist on the question. And it really would improve the entire business. I think if people focused less on fame as a resource and more on engagement and community as a resource, they would find that their careers are more fulfilling. And ultimately, we all have to pay rent, we all have to feed our families and pay the bills.
00:55:42:06 - 00:56:19:23
John Sheil
But if we can feel fulfilled while we're doing it and we're spreading joy, that is what the fan is looking for from their dollar. And it's really how we can have a symbiotic relationship as industry personnel. I mean, as a not a touring artist myself, but as a guy who's behind the soundboard on a lot of shows. I pay a lot of attention to the relationship between the room and the and the artist before, during and after the show and the folks that are not there for the right reasons or are there for for fame and glory.
00:56:19:23 - 00:56:41:20
John Sheil
And selfies are not necessarily focused as much as on their fans. And I don't think they're happier. I think that's for me, happiness is a huge part of success. I mean, I think at least my personal definition of success being fulfilled in your career, dedicating yourself to a purpose and feeling like you're helping in some way.
00:56:42:01 - 00:57:04:11
John Sheil
And I think we all as music business professionals, have an obligation to make the world a little better. And that I think you've got it dialed in. Really. I applaud you and I want to applaud all of the different ways that you do what you do. You've been in a movie now. You've obviously done a lot of covers on social media.
00:57:04:11 - 00:57:36:04
John Sheil
You've done some great tours. I ran sound for you one show that was just super engaging. I loved every minute of it. I thought it was I thought it was fantastic. And I'll point out for our listeners, one time I was chaperoning a field trip with my daughter to Cincinnati's Music Hall, and we thought we were just seeing this youth orchestra, symphony members of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, and out walks my friend and client to sing in front of the orchestra and like, Hey, you know, tapping my daughter on the shoulder.
00:57:36:10 - 00:57:53:05
John Sheil
That's my friend. She's down there, she's singing. And it made such an impact. So you've done a lot of really great things, and I applaud you for that. And what are some of your goals for next? What are you trying to accomplish in the next year? So.
00:57:53:07 - 00:58:28:05
Emmaline
Well, thank you, John, first of all. And oh my God, what am I trying to accomplish? I am working on three different bodies of work right now, and I actually just finished one and uploaded it for release. It's just a digital release only, but it's going to be really fun and I'm releasing that in mid-November and then I'm working on another project that is going to be dropping in the spring.
00:58:28:07 - 00:59:14:11
Emmaline
And then I am really, really particularly excited about the next project that I'm going to be releasing and fall of 2024 because I am kind of going in a new direction musically and I'm really, really honing in on really trying to maintain as much artistic integrity as I can. I think sometimes as artists we can get kind of we can accidentally get stuck in this bubble of releasing things that are similar to what we've released in the past because we think that's what people want to hear from us.
00:59:14:13 - 00:59:48:12
Emmaline
And that's not to say that I haven't been authentic with my releases, but I think I've been feeling a shift towards really aggressively pursuing a sound that really inspires me. I would say it's I'm kind of leaning in a direction that's a little more singer songwriter, bluesy, maybe even some elements of like Americana folk, soft rock, soft pop.
00:59:48:12 - 01:00:35:14
Emmaline
It's kind of in those worlds. And I just finished tracking that project and I'm currently planning on releasing. It involves 24 and I'm really excited. I think it is a direction that I've been really wanting to go in artistically and of course as an artist there's always a little bit of fear like, will the audience come along this journey with me as I kind of evolve because it's so interesting as like with my career specifically, people are listening to my music while I was trying to learn how to be an artist, I released my first song that I ever wrote.
01:00:35:16 - 01:00:43:05
Emmaline
I wrote my first ever song, and I released it and people listened to it. Hundreds of thousands of people listened to it. Actually.
01:00:43:05 - 01:00:44:23
John Sheil
It was amazing, actually.
01:00:45:00 - 01:01:11:19
Emmaline
Right. And so but because of that, people have been a part of my journey from day one, my songwriting journey from day one, my artistic journey from day one. And, you know, as a listener myself, I know, you know, I love it when artists go on journeys and they grow in new ways and sometimes they grow in a way that I love.
01:01:11:19 - 01:01:39:23
Emmaline
And I'm like, Man, I absolutely love this. I'm connecting with this. Sometimes artists may grow in a way that I'm like, This isn't really for me. I'm in to wait until the next album and see if that one's for me, you know? So I think as an artist, it can be a little daunting to be like, I feel called to go in a little bit of a new direction, and I'm going to do this because this is where my artistic spirit is leading me.
01:01:40:03 - 01:02:01:00
Emmaline
And if the listener wants to come along for the journey, cool. If it's not for them, that's okay too. And I will find new listeners to do connect with it, you know? So it's like a massive you just have to step forward with confidence in oneself, you know, and just be like, I like this music, hope you like it too.
01:02:01:02 - 01:02:34:02
Emmaline
And I'm so excited because we officially finished dropping it. And I have to say I am like over the moon. I feel like this is some of my best songwriting, some of my best producing. I self-produced all my own music with Ryan and some of my best producing my best vocal work. I mean, I feel that it is my best and there's nothing better to like move forward with the project than truly feeling like it is the best you have to offer at this given moment.
01:02:34:04 - 01:02:46:05
Emmaline
I feel super inspired and passionate and excited for people to kind of come along and a little bit of a new a new era for me. So yeah.
01:02:46:07 - 01:03:09:14
John Sheil
I love it. I love it. I think it's amazing. Of course, I'm a fan as well as your friend and colleague. But I want to I want to hear it. I applaud for everything that you're doing. I, I noticed there was a stylistic shift in your social media where you did I can't remember which cover it was, but it was a little bit more of a funk guitar player was with you.
01:03:09:16 - 01:03:31:18
John Sheil
I started following him on social media. I can't remember his name. My apologies, but I thought it was neat. It was refreshing. And I love to see your journey. I love that. What I want to talk about, though, is that you're planning this for a year from now, which I think a lot of people might be surprised at how long a release plan that is.
01:03:31:20 - 01:03:53:13
John Sheil
I think it's brilliant and I want to explore that just a little bit. So tell me about your release strategy, because a year of preparation is, I think, the way to go. I love long release plans.
01:03:53:13 - 01:03:55:06
John Sheil
So tell me about that.
01:03:55:08 - 01:04:24:12
Emmaline
Yeah, I think the more that I have released over time, the more I've realized that it is. It just works out better to plan in advance rather than to rush everything at the end, especially when it comes to physical sales, because I do a lot of physical sales and with vinyl lead times, you know, sometimes you're looking at 4 to 6 months, sometimes even, and turnaround time.
01:04:24:12 - 01:04:55:04
Emmaline
And I hate to keep people waiting for merch that they've preordered. So for me, I'm kind of getting to the point where I'm recording things about why we're tracking things about a year before we're ready to release and then getting things mixed and mastered and sent to manufacturing around like eight months prior to release and then start dropping singles for this next project.
01:04:55:04 - 01:05:22:21
Emmaline
It's going to be a for that project, the fall of 2024. It's going to be a six song EP. So I'm going to drop three singles because the more opportunities you can give yourself to promote and push your music, the better you are. So probably going to stop start dropping singles in the spring slash summer of 2024 and we'll probably start pre-sales for physical albums around then to spring or summer of 2024.
4
01:05:24:12 - 01:05:48:21
Emmaline
Yeah, it's just a whole thing, especially when it's just you. I mean, literally it's me and Ryan. And so since it's just us two, we do have to give ourselves a lot more time to get this stuff done because this is not our only job. We're also touring, we're also packing and personally shipping out all of our online orders.
01:05:48:21 - 01:06:22:15
Emmaline
And at this point we're getting around 40 to 50 online orders a day. And so you kind of have to plan for that in advance and realize, you know, we're not a record label. And the thing is, like even labels and artists will be in the studio working on 112 song album for four years, you know, And we don't necessarily have the luxury of doing that because, you know, independent time is money being in the studio, just being in the studio every day for a year would, you know, absolutely drain you financially.
01:06:22:15 - 01:06:41:07
Emmaline
So it just doesn't work that way for us. And you kind of have to do things a little bit different. So planning ahead and giving yourself more than enough time to promote because, you know, you can put all the effort into recording, but if you're not giving yourself time to promote, then you're shooting yourself in the foot because no one's going to hear it, you know?
01:06:41:07 - 01:07:16:12
Emmaline
So this lead time now what I have, how many pieces have I released? I've released three of my original music, EP's, and then another EP was for the Sweetwater soundtrack. So that was kind of separate. But now that this upcoming is going to be like my fourth independently released EP, and I've learned enough to realize give myself about a year from start to finish at least, and milk all the promotion time you can because that's where the money that Yeah.
01:07:16:14 - 01:07:34:08
John Sheil
I think that's I think that's brilliant. I really do. Are there keys about your release strategy that you can share with our listeners like if a entrepreneur was going to go out and do this, what would be some things you would say to look at or plan for?
01:07:34:10 - 01:08:01:18
Emmaline
Yeah, yes, I think as far as my personal release strategy, like I kind of touched on earlier, I think the more singles you can release if you're doing an EP, if you're doing an album, the more singles you can release, the better, especially when it comes to like digital streaming and downloading platforms. They kind of, you know, Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, stuff like that.
01:08:01:18 - 01:08:26:04
Emmaline
They kind of function as their own sort of social media's, if you will. And I do really think the more consistent you are with releasing music, whether it's just one song at a time or an EP or whatever, the better you, the more traction you will gain. And so I feel very strongly that releasing as many singles off of one as you can is the best way to go.
01:08:26:07 - 01:08:52:17
Emmaline
I've experimented a lot with that. For my second EP, I released the entire project as singles and I released one single a month until the final month and then the full EP was out. That worked very well for me and I think that strategy was part of the reason why I got on my first Spotify editorial playlist was because I was so consistent with releasing singles, which was upping all my monthly listeners and upping all my followers.
01:08:52:17 - 01:09:20:08
Emmaline
And then finally it was, you know, there was enough traction to kind of gain the sight of the playlist curators at Spotify. And so singles are the way to go. The more you can release, the better. And I also just think content is king. If you can make live performance videos, people love content that feels organic and content that feels like you're kind of just in the room with them performing.
01:09:20:13 - 01:09:45:19
Emmaline
And that was kind of how I got my start, was just recording these little acoustic performance videos, and now I've kind of shifted my model to where I make live band full performance videos in the studio, and content is everything. You can have the best music in the world, but if you're only posting pictures of your album cover, I'm not sure how far that will get you.
01:09:45:19 - 01:10:09:05
Emmaline
So the more videos you can make of yourself performing, people want to see you sing your songs. They want to see that. And so if you can give them that, I think the better off all of us would be. If we can just really focus on creating quality content and getting that out to the audience that cares for your type of music, you know?
01:10:09:07 - 01:10:34:14
John Sheil
Yeah, that's amazing. What is your opinion EP versus LP? I mean, do you conceptualize albums as a future project or I mean, when I say albums, I mean like long 12 song collections or 10 to 12 song collections as opposed to an EP, which is traditionally less amount of songs, right?
01:10:34:16 - 01:11:11:17
Emmaline
Yeah, I think for me, I have currently been erring on the side of EP because like I said before, I am a really big believer and consistency is key. Like if you are consistently releasing music, you're giving yourself more of an opportunity to reach more people. And I think especially as an independent, it's more cost effective when you know you don't have to book a whole week in the studio.
01:11:11:17 - 01:11:37:07
Emmaline
Maybe you can bring it out in two days and you're giving yourself more opportunity to sell more merch because you're splitting it up into smaller projects and selling merchandise for single one. That is not to say that I don't believe that albums are valid, full length albums. They absolutely have their place and I definitely want to release like a full length album, like, you know, ten plus songs at some point.
01:11:37:09 - 01:12:24:24
Emmaline
But I think for me, from a business perspective, shorter bodies of work and releasing them more consistently has worked really well for me thus far, and is kind of a business model. I think I'm going to continue until I get to the point where I'm where I feel like, okay, it's time, you know, the fans are ready. We've put in enough for the finances are all there, and I don't want to do a full album until I can really do make it big, you know, have the promotional budget, have like a team to actually help me really maximize just reach because the effort that it takes to put in to that is like, you know,
01:12:25:02 - 01:12:36:09
Emmaline
a lot more than just a six song album. So I want to really do it right When I do it. And in the meantime, I'm just going to try to be as consistent as I can and wait for my time.
01:12:36:11 - 01:13:03:06
John Sheil
Well, I think you're doing a great job. I think that everything and if listeners haven't caught on to this Emmaline is a super savvy businesswoman who is doing it right. I if I were to advise you and sometimes I do, I would have told you to do all of these things. And so for our listeners to this podcast, check my line out and, and look at how she is progressing in her career.
01:13:03:06 - 01:13:23:23
John Sheil
I think it's the proof is in the pudding. I mean, you've come such a long way and yet it feels like you're just getting started. You are in I look at your career and I see the world is your oyster. So I'm so glad that your latest projects with the Sweetwater movie are in consideration for a Grammy nomination.
01:13:23:24 - 01:13:42:22
John Sheil
I encourage all the listeners who may be able to vote to vote on this record. I think you did great work on that. I really do. I think all of your stuff is great, but that's just the fan talking. But I think as a as a business person, I applaud all of your efforts. I think you're doing a great job.
01:13:42:24 - 01:13:44:01
Emmaline
So thank you.
01:13:44:06 - 01:14:02:22
John Sheil
Thank you. Thank you for being on the podcast. I think we're going to wrap it up here, but if listeners want to like and subscribe this and join, I'm sure we'll ask for you to be back. Your career is just about blow up and I'm sure the fans are going to want to know what is going on.
01:14:02:22 - 01:14:06:02
John Sheil
And this is a good setting to talk about it in a different way.
01:14:06:04 - 01:14:08:23
Emmaline
So, yes, this was fun. Thank You, John.
01:14:09:03 - 01:14:18:23
John Sheil
Yeah. Thank you so much, Emmaline. It's been a pleasure. Well, ladies and gentlemen, this is the music business mentorship. We will be back with another episode soon. Stay tuned.
