Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the music business mentorship. I'm your host, John.
In this episode, we have a very good friend of mine on the program. His name is Gabe
Paige. Gabe and I were in a band together several years ago. And now he's a gigging
guitar player on Broadway in Nashville, playing two, sometimes three shows AD. Day.
It's really interesting, folks. So stick around here. Gabe's journey from a high school
musician to a graduate of Belmont University and their music business program to now
gigging sometimes 12 hours a day on one of the busiest streets in one of the biggest
music towns in America. Ladies and gentlemen. Without further ado, my very good
friend. Gabe Paige. Well, alright. Ladies and gentlemen, we're back. It's another
episode of the music business, mentorship and we've got my very good friend, special
guest game page on the program. Gabe, how are you, man?
Man, I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here. It's
actually. I got another gig tonight that I'm going to be running to right after this, but uh,
you know, I'm just. Always staying busy, you know.
I love it. I love it. So for those who are just tuning in to this music business, mentorship,
you may not know this, but Gabe and I go way back. We used to play in a band together
and Gabe is now, if you heard the intro here, Gabe is a performing musician in Nashville.
On Broadway, Gabe, how many gigs a day do you? Do.
Ohh man. Well right now since it's January it's we're kind of in slow season, so I'm
mostly down to like. Average probably like 1.5 a day, which is weird to say, but it's like
some days I have singles and some days I have double s and I've stopped doing triples
for a while because of some issues I've been having with my wrist that have mostly
gone away, but they still flare up if I do too much work in a day. So I just got to I just got
to kind of keep it, keep it under control and monitor it. But uh, during the summer. I was
doing. At least two gigs a day I was playing. I was playing and practicing and playing
and practicing and it was just. I played so much in the month of August. I had one day
off the whole day and I was doing double s and some triples pretty much every other
day.
Yeah, for August, it was every day because I was. I was about to say, except for the
when I was on the road. But I didn't go back on the road until I think September. Uh,
because I've taken a few Rd. gigs this year, but I mostly have done the Broadway thing
just because. Well, I'll. I'll just get into all that later. I don't get too. Much to do. Right now,
you know a lot of gigs.
Well, let me let me. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that you're playing so much. I want
you to stay healthy. So it's important to take care of yourself. So make sure that this this
January, you're doing some rest and recoup. But why don't you tell everybody how you
got started in music?
Ohh yeah. Ohh yeah. Ohh gosh well. Really, it was kind of. I don't want to say it was by
accident, but like I obviously haven't seen like the School of rock movie, you know? And
then with like Jack Black and everything. So of course I'd, I'd seen that. And, you know,
I was like, I was like, it was a cool movie, you know, it's whatever. I didn't really think too
much about it until a school of Rock opened 5 minutes from my house. I'm like. Hey,
hang on a second. Like, what's this? So I go in there to try and check it out. I eventually
start taking lessons. I did a bunch of their shows, and as I kind of was learning more
about music and, like, learn. The drums I started on the drums actually and now I now I
mostly. Play. Guitar, but like I've been taking piano lessons since I was about 5:00. But
then I start taking drum lessons when I'm like 12. And I really got really into it, you
know? And I started learning pretty quickly and like picking up a lot of stuff. And I was
trying guitar and like, trying to branch out to other instruments and really. Kind of fallen
in love with this music that I've been listening to my whole life. But then getting to play it
was a completely different experience and perform in front of a bunch of people and. Uh.
It was so much fun and I was like, I had all these things I wanted to do when I was in,
like, high school. But I know that the old high school band never really got rolling until I
actually got a call from Derrick Johnson because he was going to because he was on
the latitudes. Most band gigs with you, with some of the first ones, but he was going to
be out for a couple of weeks, so he came. He had me come in and play drums on. A
few but the first week I went there, UM, he was still there, so I ended up playing guitar in
a few songs and kind of hopping, hopping around and eventually after I finished doing
the drums when he was out I came back and just start kept playing guitar with you guys
until I went to college and then for a little while in my sophomore year of college too
before it. All before it all kind of ended up coming to a close, cause the cause, the whole
booking thing didn't work out and. But yeah, that was sort of the beginning for me, was
like that was my first real gig. Latitudes House band, which dude I saw Latitudes closed
recently too, like last year. That kind of made me sad. But you know, a lot of memories
there, man.
Yeah, it did. That's yeah, venues come and go, but it was a good experience to have. A
regular week.
Oh yeah.
Gig. And for those of you that don't know. Gabe and I played together every Tuesday
night from 7:30 to 10:00 and we really took the dinner crowd into the late night crowd.
And we really rocked him and half the band were in music school and half the band
were school of rock kids in high school. And then there was me hanging on as the MC
and the guitar player and the utility. Guy and the sound guy and the whatever, whatever
guy.
Kind of running the whole show out, you know, so.
But it's great to have that that memory together and you know, it's amazing. When I look
at those photos of you as a high schooler and now you playing three gigs a day in
Nashville. So you transferred them to Belmont, you were at university, transferred to
Belmont, and Boy, Things picked up and took off.
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, not at first. Funny enough because it was, UM, I did. I did dating for about a year
and a half the first year was an engineering school. The second year I actually mostly I
was technically undecided, but I took a bunch of music classes and I kind of breezed
through it cause it was like intro level music stuff. It was stuff I already knew and I was
planning to transfer to Belmont and double. Major in commercial music and music
business because they told me I could do that. So then I get to Belmont and at this point
I was playing with a local band that was actually touring a bunch. I know I told you a lot
about them. UM and they, you know, I'll, I'll actually shout them out right now because
everybody needs to go follow saving escape. They are awesome. Still good friends with
those guys. I miss him. I don't get to see him that much. That ended up not working out
with me moving to Nashville and. Everything. But like I did a bunch of touring with them,
just like a little mostly in state, but like going up to Columbus, Cleveland, wherever else.
But we did a couple like little out of town runs. We had some other stuff planned. COVID,
but that's what I'm about to get into. So I moved to Nashville, transferred to Belmont in
January of 2020. As I was, I was still coming back to play with the most driving back, but
that was one reason I ended up not going into commercial music because I auditioned
and I got in, but their schedule was so rigorous and they were saying you can't miss like
any classes or any practices or any of this. So I was like, you know what? Screw that.
I'm just going to do music business. But then of course, in March, COVID kind of shut
everything down. And I was an online school. For most of the rest of my degree until
about my senior year, when I was finally back here full time.
Uh, but you know, due to the COVID shutdown and just stuff that was going on with that,
uh, like the situation with me and then like I ended up trying to go back to school down
here and like the fall 20 and like. The. Like the fall 2020 or like maybe spring of 2021 or
something, but like this my schedule ended up not working out. So I ended up. Uh
ended up kind of being more on my own in that way, but. So when I finally ended up
settling in Nashville off of my senior year, that was like, alright, it's time to get some stuff
going. I had. I had kind of like a little college band with my buddies Luke and Ethan, and
it was a lot of fun and we played around and we, you know, put out a couple of songs.
They were, you know, and it was really fun. I had a great time with those guys. But you
know, Luke ended up with a different job and that was sort of. Causes some not, not like
personal conflicts, was just causing scheduling conflicts to where you know he wasn't
going to be able to do like the music thing as much full time and.
You.
I was very much like committed to like I want to do it full time. So. In my senior year, I
was taking some a bunch of different classes, like doing some production stuff. So like
obviously the copyright law and all that stuff as well. UM. I ended up landing a very cool
internship with a very successful songwriter who I'm not going to say who I don't think
I'm supposed to say, but I learned a lot of cool stuff from that being in in his studio with
him, like, listen to the notes he had for other people being around his team like both his
business manager and his engineer. Who had a lot to kind of teach me, and they were
always open. I still talked to them both actually today as. I'll. I'll call either one of them
sometimes or text and be like, hey, I got a question about this, this or that. And they're
always, like more than more than ready to answer. Uh, so they've been they were very
welcoming to me when I was working at that company, I'll say like they've, they still are
very helpful to me today whenever I reach out to them. But then at the beginning of this
year, because after I graduated from college, I was coming back and I was playing with
Sylvia a lot, as you remember, because I was in town for a bunch just doing these
acoustic shows. And I was. I had a couple of Rd. gigs with my other friend Kenny, like
going out to New Jersey and New York and playing. Out there and stuff. I did these
other gigs with this other cool band out of Charlotte Late Night special that that also
ended up not working out unfortunately. Just kind of the timing, timing of that whole
situation wasn't right. And also the seven hour drive just to practice was. Really not
making sense logistically, especially when I was struggling to like find other work in
Nashville because I was always out of town and stuff. Stuff just didn't work out there.
But then I ended up going through the tootsies backroom auditions and meeting some
people there started a band that started playing on Broadway a bunch. It's really just a
Broadway band. But made a good friend, made a bunch of good friends in that band.
And we don't play together anymore. But that was because. Uh. One of our one of our
one of the Members was having some health issues and some of us were getting some
conflicting calls pulling us and other directions. So it ended up ended up splitting with no
bad blood. You know, of course I'm going to say that like with everything. But you know,
just like kind of going through the tootsies backroom auditions, that was. That was really
cool, you know, finally getting my end and. Like having some consistent work and then
through that and having that band playing. I had some other friends that I met either at
those meetings, just out on Broadway in general or and just more people that I meet
and friends that I have. And it's like, you know, it's one thing because I was trying to get
a bunch of gigs before and I would like, go to auditions and stuff. But like, they ask, do
you have any videos of you playing? I'm like, I do. But it's for, like, years. Go and you
know, I had the short hair and all these videos and. Yeah, like where else do you plan
on like it was? It was tough for me to find anything. But now that I have this consistent
work here in town, it. Really. Helped me sort of start to open myself up to taking these.
You know better. Like Rd. gigs or not? Better Rd. Just to being having the opportunities
to take more Rd. gigs. And I've had some really cool ones this year and it's just been
like a really. This whole year has really been like an explosion of growth, both just in like
getting a lot of experience and a lot of gigs under. The belt and then also in just meeting
a lot of really cool people being able to take some like really cool opportunities being
able to travel and have a lot of fun, just playing music and now going into this next year.
I'm sort of honing in on like what my priorities are for really like building my career into
like a certain direction. So just like working myself to death, just doing gig after gig. But I
can get, I can get back to that later, but then so there's sort of the. Sort. Of overview of
like the story of Gabe coming to Nashville and doing all this. Stuff.
Well, it sounds it sounds like a great story and certainly having known you from high
school all the way to now, it's what I jokingly call a glow up because you came from this
short haired, very straight laced look to now you look like you're in Aerosmith and you're
digging so much that you probably gig more than all the guys in Aerosmith.
Of.
This playing, I mean, you're playing more guitar per.
Oh yeah.
Day than anybody in Aerosmith, let's put it that way, so.
Honestly, probably because it's just. Just I mean cause the gigs down here are 4 hours,
you know? So if you do like a triple, that's literally your whole day is. But some people
do quads and those people I don't understand. I've never done a quad and I'm like I said,
I'm taking a break from triples because you, you know, the way I play, I play pretty hard,
you know. So like it's a lot of and especially like with when you're jumping up and down
doing all this stuff as well.
Oh my.
You know, it puts a lot of stress on your wrist, but also when you're wearing boots,
which I'm not going to hold up my boots or anything right now. But like, you know, I got
like a little bit of a heel on them. And they're like, you know, they have this buckles and
stuff. And like, when you're jumping up and down, I rode around. Those for 12 hours in
a day? Sometimes that's a little hard on your knees or on your ankles, you know, or feet
or something. So like so. Yeah, it's just it's a whole. It's a whole thing of, like, I don't
understand how people are able to do like.
OK.
4 shifts in a day when I already can. I can get through triples just fine, but like my first
triple, I barely made it. I was like, I finished it and I just like, I, like, limped off that stage
and I was like, Oh my God, I can't believe I just made it through that. But then, yeah, I
felt fine the next day and got another triple like a couple of weeks later. I'm like, you
know what? I think I can handle this. It's just they got a little easier and a little easier
until this some something started tightening. Up in here and then it was just like it's time
to take a step back. Yeah, I got to remember that I'm human. Still, I have, like, I have
limits and like as much as I love playing guitar and just going out and being crazy on
stage. I got to listen to my body sometimes. It's telling me to slow down.
Yeah. Well, you definitely. No, no, no, that's great. It's really good for people to
understand what the life of a gigging musician on Broadway is. Really life, I mean, this
is this is insight that you're not going to get anywhere else unless you know somebody
who does triples and quads on Broadway. They're just you're just not going to hear it.
Yeah, sorry to get a little off. Track there but. Ohh yeah.
So it's amazing. Now I know that six months ago or so, maybe eight months ago there
was this. Big blast around Facebook about the tootsies system and the backroom
system and the deal that they were offering. And what was your?
Yeah.
Experience like with that, because that was a huge topic of conversation amongst all of
the musicians in Nashville around Nashville. And with any connection to the whole
Nashville scene. So what? What did you experience?
Ohh yeah. With that I can give you my point of view to that, because I had a I kind of
had a couple different points of view on that. So basically the way that they run things
there is they do the auditions 2 to 6 every Saturday in the backroom. Anyone could
come in and play whatever, but.
Yeah.
From there, they invite you to these Monday morning meetings where they basically try
to like, like teach you stuff. You know, they're like you'll go up and play some songs and
they'll give you feedback and. Usually the live stream, though, is uh as well, but like. Is
pretty much. They're just trying to like. The way they pitch it is they're like, hey, we're
going to try and give you some coaching and eventually get you on a gig. UM, but the
only the only issue of course being like the numbers of gigs are limited unfortunately. So
it's like that I've seen. The way I got my first gig, there was I was just around the right
people. It wasn't that my band that I started with those couple of friends to start playing
or rather not my band that I started, but rather the band that I was pulled into, you know,
because Scott basically saw me and this. Other drummer Macy and he's like you guys,
both look like Big Rock and rollers like I want to. Get. You together on something. So he
put us with this bass player, this amazing bass player, Eric. And we got a couple of
singers on board. Learned to learn to crap load of songs. Got a little set list together and
eventually we got our gigs. But the first guy I got gig I got before that I was with another
buddy of mine, Noah. Uh. Who basically, you know, they had an issue with the guitar
player. They had, uh, initial. The. They had initially hired and they ended up pulling me
in because, like, we really need somebody like Scott put us. On the schedule. And we're
like, short of guitar players, so we is there any you could come help us out. So I so it's
just kind of being in the right place that was the first regular gig. But other than that the
first actual gig I did was with this other guy, Zach, who had his own band that was doing.
2:00 to 6:00 and 6:00 to 10s on like Kid Rocks, 2nd floor and the roof. And. Stuff and.
His main guitar player that he had for that, who's another buddy of mine? You can hear
a buddy of mine a lot, you know but. He his other guy, you know, hadn't been able to do
all of their gigs, so. Every week you'd usually have like one or two for me to do, and that
was how I ended up getting my like first actual, Like tootsies gigs through that was
through Zach and I had done a couple of Broadway gigs in like late 2021 and early 2022
with my buddy Kenny. But uh, he was traveling a lot, so he wasn't in town consistently
and he never had, like, consistent shifts on Broadway from what I understand, he would
kind of pick stuff up when he was in town over at Whiskey Bin. And I still play there with
him when he's in town. If he needs somebody, I go on the road with him every now and
again. Great dude. He's awesome. Shout out Kenny Cursio. I think he actually just put
out a new song. Like this past month too. So. But. Yes, like the way that the Tootsie
system works. I got a little off track is you kind of go through the backroom auditions to
get that like first and like kind of get into where you can start meeting people and getting
gigs within the circuit? But anywhere on Broadway, a good way to start getting gigs is
just by, like, meeting the musicians. Going and like seeing if you can sit in on their set
like say hey, like up. If your guitar player needs to like, go to the bathroom like pull me
up. I know a bunch of. Songs you know, and then you know, give them your number or
like, just get in touch with people and try to like say, hey, if you need a guitar player, let
me know when you can get on some sub lists and it's easier that way. But like most
people start from what I understand they start kind of going through the tootsies thing.
So what happened with that was they basically started saying, you know, we're doing
this for free. The auditions and stuff, even they all have their own bands and stuff that
also play. On the circuit. And whatnot. But they also said, you know, they're like, oh,
we're doing this Monday stuff for free and whatever. So we want to try and make this its
own like standalone business. So they started trying to charge people 10% of their base
pay.
Mm-hmm.
Which is weird. Uh, itIt confused me. Why they were saying we want to take 10% of
your base pay back from you instead of just cutting the base pay which. It's, uh. I was
like, I was a little confused by sort of the way they were doing it, but also I didn't have
any insight on how they were trying to run their business model, whatever it might be.
Maybe. So I can only speak so much to. That because I don't know what they were
thinking. But they yeah.
It seemed like that part got a real backlash, and it seems.
That was really it, yeah.
Yeah, everybody sort of grumbled about that, and maybe they were running two
different businesses and you know, it's tough to say, as you said, we don't know their
business model, but that definitely, I mean, yeah, that's just sent shockwaves through
the whole, the whole community and everybody's like, not.
Yeah. And like the base pay was already low, you know, so it's like and you make a you
make good, you can make great money. In. Tips on Broadway, but like the base pay is
already pretty low on the Tootsie Circuit. You know, compared to certain other places.
And I'm not going to say it's the lost cause, like honestly, the lucky lucky ******** and
Whiskey River Circuit has about the same range of base pay that tootsies usually does
so.
So what is roughly the base pay for the for the musicians who might be living in another
city, you are watching this. Want to know a little bit about the Nashville scene. What?
Yeah, what can you expect from a base pay from the Tootsie Circuit or from the
Whiskey River Circuit or others?
Yeah, usually it's, it's usually it's uh, not for man, but it's. For the whole band is usually
the way they'll run it. It's usually a four or five piece band. UM, so on. I'll say. Usually
tootsies circuit based pay ranges from like at least for the late shift bands will be like
300 to 400 bucks for the band. That's for the whole band. So usually like 60 to 80 a
person. If you're doing earlier shifts it it it'll be a little bit less. The pay for one of my
consistent gigs on the lucky ******** circuit uh was 300 bucks for the whole band for a
while and it just got bumped at. 350. But obviously that's, you know, not a lot for the
whole band. So like we're still walking away with less than 100 demand, but UM. Uh, I
think I think whiskey bent anytime I've been there. I've has been a hundred a man. Uh,
the new Hank Williams Junior Bar just opened. That's usually. I think it's about 400 for
the band as well. If I'm not mistaken, but it might be a hundred a man actually. I never
asked exactly how much that was UH-10 roof. I have A10 roof gig that I do on Sundays
on the 10 roof on Broadway. That's 100 man.
OK.
But if you play it like uh, ****** or on the TC circuit, which is like the Aldean and Lukes
and all those places, it'll be more like 150 - 200 hundred a man. And those are like per
man in the band. So it's not like, so if I, you know, the band true villains that I'll
sometimes seven with that plays. They have a couple shifts at Rudy's and Johnny
Cash's it's 200 per man. Whether it's five or six, because sometimes they do six,
sometimes they do 5. But uh, you can always accept tips anywhere on the anywhere on
this anywhere on Broadway, in fact, cause even if you do have a higher base pay at.
The. That circuit doesn't let you run the bucket, but at Rudy's, you'll still run the bucket,
which is when you know one of the singers will take the tip bucket and walk around the
crowd to take people's song requests, or just ask for some tips, or just and just generally
kind of try and get a little more money because a lot of these places, you know, it's like,
is it worth $100 for four hours of music?
Yeah.
Like, do I really want? Is that really like I'd like to walk away with a little bit more? And of
course, you can make really, really good money off tips. I've been able to make, like,
very, very good amounts of money without saying specifically off a certain Broadway
gigs, but then there's other times when it's slow season and there are a ton of people
there, like trying to scrape by on that base pay. On some of these other spots can be a
little. Bit. Tough sometimes.
Yeah, hence the need for doing two and three gigs in a day.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But that's like my strategy was like I'm going to work as much as I can over the summer
and save as much as I can. So when it does get to be kind of brutal during the winter
and it's cold too, when it's cold, it's tougher to play cause like, your fingers just get tight
and also just. When? You work that much too, but I've got. I've actually got. I'll have it
right on my desk right here. This has been one of my. Life savings things for any
musicians. Here's like a pro tip. Is this Med Terra is like CBD like cooling cream. And I
just put that on my hands and my fingers every night before I go to sleep and it helps to
just kind of keep them, keep them kind of loose and relaxed, going for the day and so.
Stuff but yeah. So just to sort of circle back because I know, I know I have ADHD, so.
I'm. Get off topic really easily. But yeah, the base pay they were trying to take back 10%
of the base pay tootsies was and that made a lot of people angry. But like, you know, for
the most part I was working with some people who were, you know, a little bit closer to
the Tutsis leadership. So they were like, you know, it's not that much just. You know,
just like, pay it, pay it and it'll be fine. And I paid it for. Or. Maybe a month, but then the
more I thought about it was like I was like, man, this this really sucks. So I just, I
stopped paying it to. Be. Honest, I just. I would just like and if somebody asked me
about it. Because like one of the guys in that band would ask me is like, he's like, did
you make sure to like pay? I was like, I just go like, oh, sorry, I forgot. I'll, I'll get to it
tonight, though. And I just would because I was like, I was kind of thinking about, which
is a bit devious, admittedly. But I was like, thinking to myself, I'm like, man, I like, what
am I paying them for? Like, I have these gigs nowhere else down here is.
Yeah.
Like charging you a percentage of your pay back just to be able to play at the club. Like,
that's ridiculous.
Yeah.
Because they're not a booking agency, they're trying to make themselves to be like a
booking agency, but they're not. They're just the booking people for that bar. And I know
they have some connections. They try to, like, help get, you know, some of their people
up to, like, these other levels. But like, they're still not a booking agency. They're not
properly a booking agency. So they can't be charging.
I think that's.
That, or rather, they should be, in my opinion and in everyone else's opinion, and then
really where it got bad was when they started passing around these contracts that were
very, very poorly written. And I know you're a lawyer, so I should actually send you this
contract because it's. I mean it's. It's hilarious. It's poorly worded. They're like spelling
mistakes in it too, which is the most comical part and. And that and that, uh, that
contract leaked and everybody saw, like, some of these, like, sort of poorly worded
things where they were insisting that it was only 10% of your base pay. But the way they
had worded it was they were like as a booking industry were entitled to 10% of
performance earnings, which could be interpreted to mean your tips as well.
Right, sure.
So like you know, it was or a percentage of like even if you but then they're also saying
we want you to only book through us. We want you to only work with us and a lot of
people were saying like well, hold on now. And it was it. It was honestly, like a lot of
people. I'm not going to give my opinion on it because I still play at these clubs a lot and
I don't want to, you know. I don't want to ruffle the wrong feathers because obviously I
really and I do enjoy playing at. These. Clubs, you know? And for the most part, like
they didn't didn't give me any grief. And to be fair, like when the media backlash
happened, they did refund all the money that people had paid them. You know, they like
they, you know, they made it right, you know.
Oh wow.
Not going to. I'm not going to try and. Just. Like drag them into there like? No, they
made it right, like enough people complain that everyone crazy like there was this media
blow up, but they they called, they called us and said, you know what? We're sorry you
know. We here like, here's the money back. Like we apologize for, you know, any grief
this might have caused and I'll give. I'm going to I want to like give credit for that
because. That's.
Absolutely. You know, there's nothing better than if you make a mistake then owning up
to it and fixing it. So even, you know, on any level that's a good thing. That's a good
business practice for sure.
But yes. But the the exclusivity and trying to take the 10% of the base pay, that really
made a lot of people mad because they they felt like they were kind of just being taken
advantage of and. Uh. And that's kind of why I just stopped paying the 10%, which and
not telling anybody about it, but like and that was kind maybe that was ohh maybe that
was a little low of me to do that, but yeah.
So that was just on their circuit of venues, though, right? There's other right. And so
you've diversified your income by playing multiple different clubs and doing road work
and doing as much as you can. Now what about studio work and session playing and
stuff like that? Are you break into that sort of stuff?
Yeah, that was the only place that happened. Yeah.
Ohh no.
You as well.
I'm trying but uh, I can tell you right now that session work in Nashville is. Really, really
hard to come by, you pretty much have to just like have your own band. Or are certain
artists that you work with like you just got to know the artists personally that are going in
because the like session guys that get called to do like big sessions, it's been the same.
It's been the same like five guys on each instrument or maybe 10 guys on each
instrument doing it for like. 30. Years like you've got the same session players in
Nashville that have been doing this **** since the 90s.
Yeah.
And they're always going to get the call. So it's really hard to break in on sessions, but
UM. I've been trying to just like network with more producers and. Not just get in the uh
studio or just like, get connected with more artists on the original side of things, but I've
been trying to set up. Set it up so I can go in and write with some of my friends who are
artists and get on that side of things as well. So it's I have the writing credits to my name
for one, but #2 I also have that that I can put on a demo reel and I can send to
producers and send to friends and say hey like you know here's what I can do here. The
services I can offer. Like I I could be your guitar player and I can sit and I can, you know,
drink out a solo. Or a bunch of chords. Or whatever. Or you could have me come in and
I could help you arrange. And I could help you layer. I could help be a little bit a part of
the creative process. All I'd like is a right of credit, you know? And that that's kind of the
thing of like. I would I would probably be sacrificing some of the pay, if not all,
depending on the level of artists that we're talking about. But I feel like I'm setting myself
up a little bit better in the long term because I already have the money that's coming in
from Broadway, so I don't need to be super, like staunch on my studio rates as much as
it would be great to be making a ton of money out of the studio as well. It's like I don't
need to have a ton of money from the studio, so if a friend of mine says, hey, I really
need a guitar. So I say yeah, I'll do that. Just give me a writing credit. You know.
Yeah, that's a good way to go, certainly. And if you're not getting a writing credit, then at
least you're getting some pay for the day and you're signing a higher agreement, which
you know as I've talked about in the past, work for higher agreements are not the worst
thing in the world. If you're getting a decent. Oh yeah, great. You know, so. Yeah.
Especially down here. Uh, because if you can get into if you can get into good studio
work, the union rates are quite generous. So like, that's what I'm I was actually about to.
Try and get in and get some stuff through by FM at some point because that's I think the
studio rates down here is like just for a side musician and the studio is like 400
something for three hours. So it's really really. Great.
Yeah, that's excellent. Yeah. Well, So what is your view of the future of Nashville? Do
you see, have you, I mean, you've been down there three years or so. What what's your
feeling like the momentum of Nashville is at this point for working and gigging
musicians? I I'm hearing a lot from.
Yeah.
This side of Nashville, the northernmost suburb of Nashville that it's getting real
expensive to live, you know, anywhere in town. So people are moving to Franklin and
Hendersonville and all these other places. But what are your thoughts on?
OK.
On just life in Nashville.
Uh, it's definitely. There are definitely some, I'll call like bubbly things that are happening
if like rent, but it's this. This is the same kind of stuff is happening everywhere, really is
like rents going up, but rents going up back in Ohio too, I'm sure you know just the but
the cost of living all across the country and as far as I can see, the world is just kind of
going up because of. Whatever current economic conditions there are, which obviously
I'm not an economist, I'm not qualified to like, talk or give my two cents on that. All I can
say is yes, the cost of living is rising. The rent that I paid when I first moved here has
gone up by about, I think 50%. To now or something like that, somewhere between 30
and 50% to what I'm paying now for rent.
Yeah.
So that's a lot like it's inflating every year.
Sure. Yeah.
But. Just sort of refocus back from that. Uh, I'll say like you I did say I heard you. I heard
you mentioned Franklin and Franklin is a very nice part of town, but it is quite expensive.
I'll say more people I see living out in like Antioch or Opry Ville or like, out by the airport
and like Nashville or wherever. Because those are like sort of the. Those are like sort of
just outside of Murfreesboro. You'll see a lot, but it's so far away. It's like a 45-50 minute
drive. But. Yeah, the cost of living is going up. But. There are like. A bunch of new bars
that are opening down here. Everyone's always trying to open new venues like you're
always going to be able to. Find some kind of work somewhere or some kind of path in
Nashville. The thing I'll say as far as if you're looking to move to Nashville, you just got
to make sure you have. The right resources and a good mindset and picture of what you
want to do. UM, because it took me a while to figure it out because I didn't know very
much about the scenes here because there is like the studio scene, the Broadway
scene, the road scene. And like, I'm kind of trying to dip my toes into all of them. But it's
hard to balance it, and there are a lot of people who play on Broadway who also go on
the road. And there's also the big artists that live in town and then they're side
musicians that go out with them, and you've got other scenes of, like, you've got a jet,
there's honestly a there's a pretty sizable jazz scene in Nashville. And I know some
guys that, like, run on some of those circuits. They're like in different clubs in different
parts of town. But there's. There's always going to be a scarcity of work anywhere you
look, but there are good opportunities in Nashville and Bon Jovi's bar is opening next
year. Morgan Wallen's bar I think is opening next year. Luke Combs just bought Wild
Horse saloon and that's going to get remodeled and revamped, and it's going to have its
own thing. Barstool, just open the bar down like just off of Broadway. Uhm, the Hank
Williams Junior bar just opened the Garth Brooks bar just opened. So like. As much as
it as much as it can be tough to get gigs down here. Opportunities are going to come,
you know, and I think. I think Nashville will continue to grow for a while because you
have enough passionate people here. They're going to make that difference in the
scene. And enough artists, just like big artists that live here. Uh, How I Met uh, some
really, really cool, successful people. I've been down here some of some of them at one
point just walked into a bar that I was playing at and it was empty and they were the
only ones there. I'm like oh. My God is that who I think it is. Like you know, I'm not again
not going to say who because I don't know. Obviously there's no NDA surrounding that.
But like I'm just, you know, just for the sake of you know not. Not trying to name drop
people, but like it's just you never know who you're going to meet down here and it's a
great town and there's a lot of music and it's really easy to find, like minded passionate
people. And start just working and building something with them. And yeah, it's tough
sometimes. And there's always going to be questions, but it in what industry is it not
tough and are there not questions, you know there is like nothing's nothing is ever going
to be easy. So you may as well have a hard time doing something you love then a hard
time doing something you don't love. And that's my $0.02 on it. But you know I love
Nashville. I plan on staying here for a long time because I think I think I think it's a
promising. Place to a sort of have my base as. Uh, maybe not an artist myself, but as
somebody who's kind of working with a lot of artists and being on people's teams and
being that musician, that kind of help people get to where they want to be, but also just
having fun downtown when I'm when I'm in my time off and like being able to play and
just. Kind. Of do it play and record and write and just do all the things you know it's. Like
I'm trying. To wear a lot of hats, you know? But.
Yeah.
It's just fun, you know? It's a great town, so. Yeah, that's sort of my rambling is
concluding. But like it's my $0.18. So two cents. I don't know.
I love it. I love it. It's great. It's, it's perfect. And it's insight that a lot of people don't have.
So thanks for sharing. Now, you mentioned being on a team and I know that you did
some road work and we won't name names, but you were going out with a very famous
artists child and you were you were a part of that team for a little while.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I know you got offered the gig, but you're in this process where you're trying to
make the. Determination as to is it worth it and what is your current thinking on that and
what goes into that kind of calculation?
Yeah.
Well, UM for me. It's it was kind of a an interesting conversation that I'm I'm still sort of
having with. Myself. Because obviously, as you know, I'm a big rock'n'roll guy, you know,
and most of the people I play with on Broadway are more like rock focused or or like
rock or R&B or funk focused. Or pop or whatever. You know, most of the bands I play
with are have less of an emphasis on country. I mean we have. To play some. Country
because we we'll get it requested or the bar wants us to play play it sometimes or
whatever. But usually we have more emphasis on like rock, pop, funk or and be that
kind of thing with most of the artists I play with down here. But, umm, this particular gig
that you're talking about was with was, you know, it was more. It was a much heavier
emphasis on country and it was. It's a cool gig and I think I'm thinking to myself and like
I know it can lead to something really cool. Like obviously the connections are there. But
sort of the conversation I'm having with myself is. Like you know, I I've always been a
big rock'n'roll guy and I see a lot of rock'n'roll guys transition to country because it's just
what presents itself to them. UM and I was thinking, you know, I'd rather I'd much
obviously, I'd much rather play rock'n'roll, but I'm also having the conversation with
myself of do I want to just. Be. A side musician. Or do I want to be somebody who can
contribute to a team because I don't really see myself as being. Like a front man kind of
artist, you know, I think I I think I have some amount of artistry in my own right, but not
as like. Say. A Steven Tyler. Or I'm going to use him as an analogy because like
basically what I'm trying to be, I'm trying to be the Joe to someone, Steven, like I'm not.
The front. All the time, you know. But I can be in the studio or I can help. Or you could
even say I could be someone's Brad Whitford, obviously. I mean they they all get. I can't
really make an Aerosmith an analogy. Uh, a better. Sure. A better analogy I'll make
would be being like, uh, what's her name or what's his name? I mean, uh, Billy Eilish's
brother, who has worked with her on, like all of her stuff through her whole career has
helped, like, Co write a lot of her songs and produce a lot of stuff for her. And it's yes,
thank you. I'm sorry. I've I'm not very familiar with her.
Phineas.
No.
To be honest, I I like old music, you know. I like Aerosmith and the dead and rush and
yes, so I'm like, I'm not super well versed in a lot of newer stuff. Sorry, but like I want to
be someone like him where it's like I'm kind of, I'm sort of thinking about like maybe I'd
kind of like to be someone like him, where it's like I can be. I can still play and I can be
out there live, but I'll also have like a role behind the scenes where I can be a part of the
writing team or the metal side of production. As much as I'm not great at like the
mechanical thing of production. Was that? That's the conversation. I'm sort of having
with myself right now. I'm trying to sort of solidify where I want to go this year is like,
yeah, I could take. I could take a couple of these, you know, Rd. gigs and, like, do stuff
and just be a side musician and just be a touring guy. Like, just go out on the road and
do this and this and this. But and I was talking to my buddy about my buddy Rue about
this. And we're thinking about pitching ourselves as, like, an arranging team for certain
artists because we both kind of come from different backgrounds. We both know a
decent amount of theory. But he went to Berkeley, so obviously, he's like, super.
Good.
Well, like well versed and like the like the books and like the actual, like nitty gritty of it,
where it's like I've kind of gleaned a lot of theory from just being immersed in a lot of
different types of music and kind of having to keep my head above water. Like I played
in a fusion band for a while last year. But I'm kind of having that. Thought. Like I'm kind
of trying to think of like, do I want to be a side musician and? Like get those connections
there? Do I want to like maybe take a little bit of a longer Rd. But set myself up to be. A
little more involved in sort of the the behind the scenes stuff too, and I'm thinking that's
kind of where I want to lean. Because I do.
Does the economics.
Express. Yeah, sorry.
Well, I'm. I don't want to cut you off, but does the economics of of the road versus being
more stationary and and working double s in, you know, on Broadway? Like do you? Do
you make more doing one or the other?
You absolutely make more money on Broadway. Unless it's like private gigs that are
and less like the road gigs are like private gigs or like you are the artist doing like an
arena tour, in which case you don't need to do Broadway because you make enough.
Money. But I know I know guys. I have a buddy. Who just came off of an arena tour.
Like he was out playing huge venues every night and he's still on Broadway now that
he's back in town so. It's like. You know, I think about that, it was like. It's like, yeah, you
absolutely make more money on Broadway because you can do more gigs in a day.
And of course, if you have good gigs that we're making a lot of tips or bands that are
really good. And and they just get more tips from the. Crowd or whatever. UM. Like you,
you you absolutely make more money on Broadway. I'll say. Anytime I've gone on the
road, I I've made less money on the road than I would have made staying in town
except for the private gig I did in Colorado when they were paying us like an absurd
amount of money to come and do this private event. But like any other time it's it's just
been. Less. And that's fine, because going on the road is fun, and that's what I want to
do at the end of the. Day. But the reason I say I kind of want to be on a team is because
I want to be that part of the team where it's like I'm not just getting paid a rate. You know,
I'm a little more invested in it, but in the long run, when it kind of gets to be on that arena
level or wherever. I have a I have a cut of that big paycheck, but also I have but and not
just, not just on the money side. Obviously as much as that's great. You know, having
kind of the big paycheck, but also would like to kind of be able to. Call it my own. As well.
Sure, you know what I mean. Like. Because I just want to be able to sort of express
myself a little. Bit. More through the whole process, you know creatively from like the
recording stage to going out live and then maybe doing different arrangements of the
songs live or whatever it may be.
Sure.
UM.
Sure.
And it's still, it's still, I've not. I've it's still a conversation I'm having with myself, and I
might end up doing both, depending on the situation of the month of the day, which
which gig I get offered or, you know, cause if I get if I get a call for a big festival gig. I'm
not gonna say, well, you know. What I'd rather. Not do side music, of course. I'm gonna
say yes. Like, if someone's like, hey, I need you to come open for Hardy or something.
And be like ohh yeah, I'll do that, you know. Friend of mine did that earlier this year. You
know, it was. It was like, yeah, you got to take that. It's a great gig. But, umm, just in the
long term, you know, just it's kind of hard to there's no like right or wrong answer to
anything and that's the that's tough thing about this industry versus like accounting or
something where it's like you have your you know ladder that you climb and stuff. It's
like here things just like. Things can change real fast.
Sure.
You know it's you just never know what's gonna happen, but you just as you, if you
keep down, if you keep your head down, you keep working. You just make stuff that
connects with people. And that's one of the bands I play with. Is. With uh is, with this girl
Ari, and she's amazing. And I'll. I'll, I'll shout, I'll shout her out as well as every every go
follow Ari on the social media and everything we're going to be. But not some music
soon, but one of the things I've noticed with playing uh with her band is. You know, we
get a lot of people, you know, who come in and it's like, yeah, we are playing cover gigs,
but. People really like the way we play them or like, you know, the heart that we kind of
have. Uh, because we're a band that plays with a lot of intensity and a lot of passion,
and obviously she's not the only band I play. I play with a lot of bands down here with
some other friends. And we do. You know, that's I I try to take. As many gigs as I can
with the people who I know who are like, very passionate and play hard and really like
to put on a show even though it is a cover. Games like you know, we gotta like.
Because that makes a difference for a lot of people that are requesting these songs.
They want to hear them, like reproduced faithfully and like. And like they wanna see,
they wanna hear that passion it cause you know, the songs recorded and written with a
lot of passion. If I'm just gonna go on stage and stand there like this. You know. It's not.
It's not really a faithful recreation, in my mind. But like people notice when you put a lot
of heart into it and they they go back and they follow you and then you put out your
music, they want to listen and you want to. Come tour. So like I'll see a lot of people on
Broadway who are kind of. Using it as. Like uh, an inverse tour because all the tourists
are here.
Right.
You know, you've got people from Seattle there. You've got people from California, like
somewhere in Cali over there. You got someone from Michigan over there like you got
you got somebody, you know, like, I've, I meet a lot of sensitive people down here too.
There are ton of sensitive people down here for the Bengals game. There's like, you
know, you just always have your banners up and point people to those QR codes say,
hey, we got, we got music and we got music coming out. Hey, keep in touch with us.
Hey, you know, like we would love to come see you when we go on tour and.
How much are you?
So you can use.
Yeah. How much?
Are you focused on building an e-mail list?
UM e-mail list hasn't been something I've thought about. Honestly, it's mostly. And I've
I've honestly been uh, struggling to have a social media presence, so that's something
I'm I've already got on my list to be better about this year. Just having a QR code or
something like a sign I can put up on my stand just for my. Own Instagram and all this
other stuff.
Well, if I can encourage you and and our listeners here to take e-mail lists seriously, I I
am noticing from all of the folks.
Yeah.
That are teaching music that their social media presence is really geared towards giving
something away for free in order to get the e-mail list and get the contact. And then the
folks that we've talked to on on this podcast, Emma Line being one of them. She's
focused on, you know, how much she can sell merch and.
OK.
And selling merch daily on her. Web sites and and all the socials really comes down to
building that community of people who are on her e-mail list and and she can. She even
has a campaign where you can get her CD for free if you pay shipping. But really what
that's all about is having a way to direct market to the fan. So I want to encourage you
and and everyone that you work with to to build that e-mail list so that you can do direct
marketing because people do want to stay in touch, they want to feel.
That's awesome.
To you and you've got to build pathways for them to give you more money. And so if
you have robust merch on your website or you do have stuff that you can do direct to
fan sales, I mean, you're gonna make a lot more if you sell a CD or a download directly,
then if you go through the distributors and and that that sort of leads. Me to my next
question, which is really one of the questions that I ask everybody and it's a kind of a
broad question. So you can take your spin on it, but. If you had a magic wand and you
had the power to change. Anything about the music business, including you know how
much money artists make on Broadway. But if you, if you had the power to change one
thing or change anything about the music industry.
Ohh man.
What would it? Be and how would you use that magic wand?
I am. I'm going to give you a couple different answers. I'd say like. As far as locally, one
thing that I've really seen rearing its head lately is I've seen. You know, a lot of the, a lot
of the rock'n'roll people I know down here, a lot of the rock musicians. Obviously, most
of the people I. Hang. Out with and like play with and sub for and do all this you know.
Everyone's, you know, and not just the right music, but a lot of Broadway people are
very supportive of each other, like rock country, whatever. But there have been a few
people on kind of each side of the aisle or see some rock people going after the country
people and some country people going after the rock people ever saying. Well, you're
stealing our gigs, you're cutting in and out on our this and that. And I'm seeing this. Like
sort of. Just like, really toxic. Kind of like US versus them mentality. Uh, coming into
being? Uh. Not just. Not just, I mean, like particularly on Broadway, but like also just. In
a lot of the music industry in general, uh. A lot of people have this, like, very sort of toxic
competitive nature to them where they feel like they have to tear someone else down to
be able to succeed. And that's not true at all. Because, I mean, yes, there's an idea of
scarcity in any kind of economic model. You know, like, you can never eliminate scarcity
in any way, however. Is there any limit to however many numbers, like how many artists
you can follow on Instagram? Listen to on Spotify? You know, like there's there's room
like my, uh, one of my professors. I had a music publishing professor at Belmont, Dan
Keane, who said like he had, he said the top of the music industry is not a peak. It is a
plateau. There is room for everybody to. Succeed. You know. Like. Like, yes, everybody
wants to have a million number ones, but guess what? Like when when was
Aerosmith's first number one, you know, I don't think it was until the 80s. I don't think
they if they even had one. You know it's like and that's my favorite band of all time. I'll
look that up right now. When was Aerosmith's? First number one. 1998 don't want to
miss a thing.
Wow, yeah.
You know, and it's like that was their. No, that was their only #1. That was their only
number. One was don't want to miss a thing. And that was because it was in a movie
which comes back to a lot of the stuff you were talking. About going into sync and stuff
and how sync is so important. But to to sort of. But Aerosmith is still world famous. They
had one number one people would think they had more, but like then you also have. But
it's like a number one, there are still a lot of opportunities for #1 throughout the year and
through from year to year. And even if you don't have a number one, there are a lot of
bands that didn't even have number ones. They're still very famous and successful.
Yeah.
Say and it's, you know, because success is. It's not like sports, you know, in sports you
have a champion, you have a limited number of people who could be in any league at
any time. It's super competitive, but it's. It's not. It doesn't make sense to me to carry
that over into an industry like music where we can all make our own careers. We can all
have the same fans. We can even be each other's fans, you know, like you know what I
mean? It's it's we're. So I I see I think the one thing I that's the biggest thing I'd change
is I I would, I would try to.
Right.
Change everyone's mentality from. From being like I gotta tear someone else because I
see so many people who just want to tear other people down and who just like, lash out
at other people. Cause like, oh, you lost a gig. Well, that's because, like, well, it's about
time because you you rock'n'roll people you came in and you took away our gigs. And
you did this. It's like, whoa, hold on. Like, like, it's the everything changes. Everything
always evolves. We can all still succeed together.
Yeah.
You know, there doesn't have to be this competition, this US versus them. We can all
succeed together. So that's one thing, but also it the other very clear thing is I. Would.
Uh, the other thing I would change is I. Would. I would just flip streaming on its head.
Man streaming sucks. Musicians just get screwed seven ways from Sunday by
streaming. That's the business thing I would change with my magic wand if we're
narrowing it down to that, but as far as like other things. I. I I've just seen a lot of.
Toxicity and like this like weird. Like I would say, not even it's beyond the point of just
being competitive with other musicians. But just like being. For no reason, just nasty
and judgmental of other people trying to make their way up in this industry, and
particularly on Broadway, but anywhere in the industry. And I just think there's really no
reason for that like. Because all it does is, it does make everyone miserable. And like I
said, the music industry is not a place where there's a limited amount of success like we
can all succeed.
Yeah.
We can. There's room for us all to have great careers and make great songs and write
great songs that have a lot of success, you know, because number ones are still relative.
I was talking about number ones, you know if. If one song gets streamed a million times.
Uh, there could be a bunch of other songs that got streamed at 9 hundred, 999,000
times, but they're still not number ones, but they still got streamed 999,000 times.
Yeah, that's right.
So it's, you know, I don't know, that's just my that's just my perspective on it.
Well, I think that's great. I think that's a great perspective and it's certainly more
collaborative than competitive, which I I am a fan of because I do think that. Your
network is key in this business and and if if you're very cutthroat as a person and and
you're cutting somebody down, you don't know what kind of relationship you're cutting
off. Yeah. And so I I think and you're seeing this, you know, living in in a music town
there, your network and your relationships. You know, you could meet.
Ohh yeah.
Someone that could just quickly change your whole life and if you if you rub them the
wrong way because you're super cutthroat and you're super competitive, then all of a
sudden you've cut off this. What could have been an amazing, amazing life for yourself.
Oh yeah.
So yeah, I mean I I think you're you're entirely right with that. And I I love your attitude
throughout this throughout this conversation, you've talked about all the situations that
didn't quite work out, but you're still buddies and you're still, you're still, you know, still
on good terms with these folks and that's.
I always try to be man like I never want. I never want there to be any bad blood. If
something just doesn't work out. Because sometimes that's just the truth of the matter is
just it doesn't work out or, you know, creative differences are what they are or you know,
or there's the timing or logistics or whatever happens. But like, I still have. Like I have, I
have no ill will or no bad blood towards anybody that I played with in the past. I wish I
have a lot of love for all of them. In my heart I have a lot of respect for all of them in my
heart and I wish them all a great amount of success and I and I say that with 100%
honesty and you know people can. Go out, there's. Always ********. And he? You know,
he's this or that. But like, no, I like to. I'm to be completely honest. I love and respect
everyone I've played with. I'm very thankful to have gotten to play with so many cool
people and I wish the. The utmost amount of success because I want us to all succeed
together, even if I'm not playing with them anymore, you know, because of whatever
reason, I still want everyone to succeed. And so I was going to sort of pivot back. To
what you're saying is just like being cut through doesn't work, but like music, as music
by nature is a collaborative piece of art, you know, you work with other people in a band
to play live, you work with other people in the studio to make a record, to write a song,
to do any of this, you work with other people to get your music out there. It's, you know,
you, you have to work with other people at some point. And like if you can collaborate
with your band, why can't you collaborate and be supportive of of other artists? As well,
you know, so it's like that's that's my thing is music by nature is collaborative. So you
gotta carry that mindset that you have with your core group to just the the industry as a
whole. Just be open to people you know. So I don't mean to go off on another tangent,
but it's sort of like my other point. I'm just what you were saying is just like kind of trying
to build on that. And I just want to spread positivity.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, it's cheesy as that sounds. I want to spread. Some positivity.
I mean that is what that is, what our role is, right? As musician, we're bringing the magic,
you know. And and that's if we can spread joy, if we can leave a lasting legacy of
positive energy in this earth. And then I think we've done our jobs, right. Yeah.
Perfect.
Yeah.
And it's even even on the cover gigs, a lot of people don't want to take them seriously.
But I'll tell you, man, I have seen. I have seen people move to tears by certain songs
played at the certain times. That meant a lot to some people, even though it's a cover.
Yeah.
Still had that same impact I've seen. I've seen tears at Broadway gigs.
That's awesome.
That's why I give a ****. Pardon my French. You can. You might have to bleep that in
post, but.
Yeah.
Like.
That's fine.
But that's, you know, that's why I was just talking with my buddy Chris about that the
other day was like man, that's that's why we care. That's why we still put an effort we we
still dress crazy and jump around and. Do all this, you know, act nuts on stage because
it's like, yeah, it's a cover gig, but like it's music in any form means something to people.
So that's why we. That's why we give. A **** you know, and it carries, and it carries into
the rest of our careers as well. I think that's my philosophy or if you can even call it a
philosophy, just a.
Right.
Yeah.
Mindset, perspective, whatever.
Well, I think that it is brilliant. And I I look forward to watching your career grow and I
hope that you'll consider coming back on the music business, mentorship I. Hope we
can.
Oh, I would love to. Anytime, man.
Yeah, I think we should have a an update from Gabe every once in a while it would be.
Great, so keep. Rocking man, we're going to end it here and. Ladies and gentlemen,
please tune in again. We will have lots more from the music business, mentorship in the
weeks to come and check out our courses and our coaching programs. And definitely if
you're in Nashville, go check out Gabe Page and all the projects that he's a part of. He's
truly a great, great human being and a fantastic guitar player. So you need to go see
him. Paige, thank you very much for being on the program. We really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me, John. I love you, man. I hope I can come back to
Cincinnati and just hang out sometime soon. Man, I'm. See a lot, but I'm glad to see all
the great things are going on.
Awesome. Thanks.
